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MarkZ
New member
Username: Spacejanitor

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

I've been wondering about the miniaturization process, and haven't found a real answer to this (although I'm sure there is somewhere).

Are hair follicles ever truly dead? During miniaturization, the follicle shaft decreases progressively in diameter as it is lined with DHT, but is there a point where the follicle is technically GONE, or the hair follicle cells are dead entirely?

There is lots of anecdotal evidence from people on Propecia and others that say, for instance, if you are a Norwood 7, you won't achieve a Norwood 2. Now this may be the case, but does that mean that these follicles are long-since dead and unable to ever produce hair, even if suddenly no DHT was present in the bloodstream/scalp?
 

jpj
New member
Username: Jpj

Post Number: 305
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Mark, there is something called "apoptosis" which basically means programmed cell death in response to some negative stimuli that happens in the body.


Here is a very interesting RU58841 study (they didn't use enough RU though in my opinion, and watered it down way too much), that shows that moving human MPB follicles to mice seen the follicles NOT have a second cycle except in 2 mice. The RU58841 (androgen receptor blocker) group, regrew hair for a second cycle 28% of the time.


Here it is:

View PubMed citation
Publication history
Issue online:
02 Oct 2003

Home > List of Issues > Table of Contents > Article Abstract
British Journal of Dermatology
Volume 137 Issue 5 Page 699 - November 1997

To cite this article: B DE BROUWER, C TÉTELIN, T LEROY, A BONFILS, D VAN NESTE (1997)
A controlled study of the effects of RU58841, a non-steroidal antiandrogen, on human hair production by balding scalp grafts maintained on testosterone-conditioned nude mice
British Journal of Dermatology 137 (5), 699–702.
doi:10.1046/j.1365-2133.1997.19382053.x

Prev Article Next Article
Original Article
A controlled study of the effects of RU58841, a non-steroidal antiandrogen, on human hair production by balding scalp grafts maintained on testosterone-conditioned nude mice
B. DE BROUWER, C. TÉTELIN, T. LEROY, A. BONFILS & D. VAN NESTE0Skin Study Centre, Skinterface sprl 9 rue du Sondart-B 7500 Tournai, Belgium, 1Roussel Uclaf, Romainville, France
Correspondence to: D. Van Neste. Skin Study Centre, Skinterface sprl 9 rue du Sondart-B 7500 Tournai, Belgium
Abstract
Human hair growth can be monitored for several months after the transplantation of scalp samples from men with androgen-dependent alopecia on to female nude mice. Hair production from balding sites has been shown to be inhibited in testosterone-conditioned nude mice. We used this recently reported model to study the effect of a new non-steroidal antiandrogen — RU58841 — on human hair growth. Twenty productive scalp grafts from balding men were maintained for 8 months after grafting on to nude mice, and hair production was monitored monthly for 6 months. All mice were conditioned by the topical application of testosterone (testosterone propionate, 300 μg in 10 μL; 5 days/week) on the non-grafted flank. The scalp samples were divided equally according to the estimated hair production potential, which was based on the amount of hair present on the scalp samples before grafting. Each of the two equal groups of grafts was further allocated at random to be treated topically (5 days/week) with blinded solutions of either RU58841 1% in ethanol, or ethanol as a control.

Twenty-eight active follicles appeared on the 10 control grafts. Among them only two follicles (7%) initiated a second hair cycle. However, the 10 RU58841-treated grafts bore a total of 29 active follicles, and eight of them (28%) showed a second cycle. The values for the linear hair growth rates (LHGR) were significantly (P < 0.04) higher in the RU58841-treated group. Recycling and increased LHGR indicate a positive action for RU58841 on human hair growth from balding samples grafted on to testosterone-conditioned nude mice, and encourage a clinical trial to evaluate its potential in the treatment of androgen-dependent alopecia
 

wookster
New member
Username: Wookie

Post Number: 153
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 01:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Even bowling-ball scalps have tiny baby hairs that would give a full head of hair if they re-enlarged to full size.

The tissue and hypodermis supporting the follicles are atrophied to such a degree
that the follicles cannot regrow to a larger size.

I think I recall jpj posting some pictures of a politician with a hair transplant that looked un-natural. Once someone balds beyond a certain point, it becomes the point of no return.
 

MarkZ
New member
Username: Spacejanitor

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 03:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Interesting.

But theoretically, then, this would mean that it is possible to regrow a head devoid of hair due to MPB back to what the individual looked like when he was 18...?

Don't got me wrong here - I'm not trying to give guys some false hope that a completely bald man will suddenly grow a Tom Cruise head of hair. But I am thinking that this process can be reversed given the right circumstances, enough time, and the correct "tools"...


I'm pondering a few theories on MPB right now (I'm sure I won't have been the first nor the last) and using myself as a guinea pig. I'm taking photos of my progress and hopefully if everything goes as to plan, I'll report back here with my thoughts.

So far, the circumstance which has given most credence to my theories is the fact that I'm fairly certain I have caused my own recent hairloss. On purpose.

Within 4-6 months I have gone from a stable frontal hairline to complete miniaturization of the hairline up to 1.5 inches behind it, on purpose (sort of) and without changing my diet or any other external factors. I won't go into why I did this yet, although most of you probably think this is BS (and it may even turn out to be).
But to me the anecdotal evidence is too high to simply relegate to "genes". While I do believe genetics plays a big role in predisposition and the follicle's ability to handle DHT or any other baldness-causing factors, I do not believe it is out of an individual's control.

If I had a strong frontal hairline in August 2006 that progressed to full frontal miniaturization by November-December 2006, and I set out with the SPECIFIC INTENT to "recede my hairline" during that time, I find it hard to believe that I had no role to play in my hair loss.

Right now these are little more than crackpot theories backed-up by nothing, but if you guys give me some time, I believe I can reverse the exact effect I achieved during those 5 months in the next 4 months. I have pictures from each of these time periods, and will take more pictures as time goes on and I (hopefully) make some progress.
 

Downunder
New member
Username: Downunder

Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 07:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Markz

On the subject of follicle death, it appears the hair follicle miniaturises, the atrophy becomes a major problem and with time the hair follicle does break down. The actual follicle structure becomes damaged. It is a significant time between hair loss and this happening. There are some of those smooth scalps where the fine vellus hairs no longer exist (or decrease in number significantly).

Your comments on propecia are more a function of the chemical and its ability to work. It does not necessarily mean that if you used another method that worked better, that more hair cannot be recovered.

When you say "without changing my diet or any other external factors" this leaves only a few options like stress, mind, internal, genetic etc. I am curious as to what causal event you are referring to as the trigger of your hair loss. You may be more in the category of TE or other categories. These quick, short-term events are much more recoverable than MPB. They are significantly different.

Let us know a little about your case as you are pondering.
 

Tom Hagerty
Moderator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3230
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

MarkZ:

Did I understand you right? - "If I had a strong frontal hairline in August 2006 that progressed to full frontal miniaturization by November-December 2006, and I set out with the SPECIFIC INTENT to "recede my hairline" during that time..."

Are you actually saying that you tried to lose hair in your frontal hairline? Is this some kind of experiment? Wow!
 

White Bulb
New member
Username: White_bulb

Post Number: 116
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

My thoughts exactly !!

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