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wookster
New member
Username: Wookie

Post Number: 142
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 02:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Interesting...

http://www.lymphedemapeople.com/thesite/lymphedema_fibrosis.htm


quote:



Lymphedema and Fibrosis

Long standing lymphedema causes a condition known as fibrosis. As the fluid continually collects in a limb, it becomes hard and dense. With each stage of lymphedema there is also a change in the tissue texture of a limb.

[...]

Fibrosis follows either acute or chronic inflammatory states. Chronic inflammation is characterized by persistent tissue destruction involving both parenchyma and stroma. The damage is so extensive that it cannot be repaired by parenchymal cells alone; as a consequence, fibrous connective tissue replaces some of the tissue lost. This fibrosis leads to formation of scar tissue.





How can fibrosis be reversed?
 

Klaas H
New member
Username: Jkkezh

Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Copper peptides, Aminexil, Laser and maybe the Papain posted here last week
 

Klaas H
New member
Username: Jkkezh

Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Reversal might be very hard to achieve though....This is why I think full regrowth on slick bald spots is pretty much impossible.
 

Klaas H
New member
Username: Jkkezh

Post Number: 89
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Maybe the dermaroller (or needle therapy) could also be beneficial..

It induces fibrosis and forming of collagen fibres (bad?) But this might also remodel the skin in a good way....

What is the collagen Induction therapy (in short: CIT)?

The human body reacts to any injury to close it as fast as possible, as tiny it may be. This wound-closure is done by various growth factors forming a connective tissue (fibrosis) in form of collagen fibres. A tiny prick is not very dramatic, but the picture changes when thousands of needle pricks are set close to each other. The collagene fibres become confluent, forming a new tissue layer. To a certain extent this new collagen formation will compensate the loss of tissue layers caused by age. The CIT with the Dermaroller has no negative side effects compared with laser resurfacing or acid-peeling.
 

Stephen Foote.
New member
Username: Footy

Post Number: 29
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Wookster wrote:

"How can fibrosis be reversed?"


There is evidence that the recently developed laser treatments for MPB, work by reducing lymphedema and fibrosis.



http://www.lymphedemapeople.com/thesite/lymphedema_laser_treatment.htm


http://www.tintagelandalusians.com/holistic_laser.htm


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/461519

The last link is of particular interest, as it is a controled study.


S Foote.
 

Stephen Foote.
New member
Username: Footy

Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

You have to log in for that last link, so here is the article.


Laser Treatment Helpful in Postmastectomy Lymphedema



Sept. 16, 2003 — Two cycles of low-level laser treatment (LLLT), but not one, are effective in reducing the volume, tissue hardness, and extracellular fluid associated with postmastectomy lymphedema, according to the results of the first double-blind, placebo-controlled trial on the topic, published in the Sept. 15 issue of Cancer. However, range of motion was not improved.

"Recent reports indicate an efficacy for LLLT in the treatment of lymphedema, with both practitioners and clients reporting remarkably rapid improvement of lymphedema, often within hours of irradiation," write Colin J. Carati, PhD, from Flinders University in Adelaide, South Australia, and colleagues. "We reasoned that the laser might reduce fibrosis and activate surviving lymphatic drainage pathways, stimulate the growth of new pathways, and/or stimulate a localized lymphocyte response that may assist in resolving the lymphedema."

In this single crossover trial, 61 patients with postmastectomy lymphedema were randomized to receive placebo, one cycle of LLLT, or two cycles of LLLT to the axillary region of their affected arm.

Although there was no significant improvement noted immediately after any of the treatments, the mean affected limb volume decreased significantly at one month or three months of follow-up after two cycles of active laser treatment. Nearly one third of subjects had a clinically significant reduction in volume by more than 200 mL approximately two to three months after two cycles of treatment. Placebo treatment or one cycle of LLLT did not significantly affect limb volume.

Three months after two cycles of LLLT, the extracellular fluid index of the affected and unaffected arms and torso decreased significantly, and there was significant softening of tissues in the affected upper arm. However, treatment did not appear to improve range of motion.


S Foote.
 

jpj
New member
Username: Jpj

Post Number: 292
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Stephen,

Is the fibrosis seen in body hairloss with edema perifollicular fibrosis in all cases?
 

wookster
New member
Username: Wookie

Post Number: 143
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 04:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

I am not exactly sure what the symptoms of MPB scalp fibrosis are like. After well over a year and a half of vigorous daily scalp exercising, the frontal balding region of scalp is not as stiff or rigid/calloused as it was before the SE. It has been a gradual return to healthy scalp condition. Not much in the way of new hair growth though but a small amount of hair has regrown. Still flexing, and hopefully expecting more hair in the near future ;)

I started out as a NW 4 and am now around a NW 3.5 or so.

I believe the Edema Hypothesis/Theory gives some very good clues for the MPB process. A pressure gradient would definitely produce a symmetric and predictable pattern of hair loss for different shaped heads and different muscle and tendon arrangements.
 

Downunder
New member
Username: Downunder

Post Number: 24
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 05:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Steve

On that last article it says "However, treatment did not appear to improve range of motion."

I know you have an interest in the LLLT. I guess my opinion is that laser therapy has some real benefits for certain problems, but it appears to assist in improving only certain parts of, in the MPB case, the skin/scalp. In the above cases/article it has improved the fluid issue but not other related issues such as mobility.

I have a few theories, but can I ask:
What is your opinion? Do you believe in full reversal of MPB though LLLT?
If you have considered the opinion mentioned in my comments, what are your thoughts on why this might occur?
 

Stephen Foote.
New member
Username: Footy

Post Number: 31
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

JPJ wrote:

"Stephen,

Is the fibrosis seen in body hairloss with edema perifollicular fibrosis in all cases?"

I have not seen any references to perifollicular fibrosis in relation to body hair changes. Have you a specific reference?

I cannot find any specific studies of hair follicle condition in the lymphedema articles themselves.

S Foote.
 

Stephen Foote.
New member
Username: Footy

Post Number: 32
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Downunder wrote:

"Steve

On that last article it says "However, treatment did not appear to improve range of motion."

I know you have an interest in the LLLT. I guess my opinion is that laser therapy has some real benefits for certain problems, but it appears to assist in improving only certain parts of, in the MPB case, the skin/scalp. In the above cases/article it has improved the fluid issue but not other related issues such as mobility.

I have a few theories, but can I ask:
What is your opinion? Do you believe in full reversal of MPB though LLLT?
If you have considered the opinion mentioned in my comments, what are your thoughts on why this might occur?"

I agree than LLLT is not going to be the complete answer in itself.

According to my theory, DHT is causing lymphedema of the MPB area by a restriction lower down the lymph vessels. So DHT needs to be reduced to allow proper drainage through the system.

In my opinion the LLLT is "posibly" the best thing we have to treat the damage caused in the MPB area, the fibrosis and re-generation of perhaps ectatic lymph vessels in the MPB area.

But without removing the original restriction, the LLLT is not going to be able to repair the ongoing damage completely.

For a while now i have been using topical Zix, "not" in my bald area but in the hairy areas of my head and face. Zix is cheap enough to be used like this. I have said before that i believe it is the total DHT produced in the hairy areas, that are significant in the back pressure action upon the MPB area.

I am getting some regrowth back into the bald area from the sides upwards, and longer vellous on the bald area.

I have just got a laser "brush"

http://www.amazinglasercomb.com/

Looked like the best option price and performance wise.

I will see if this further improves the effect of the Zix.

I think finding the right combination of treatments is going to be the way, i cannot see any one thing alone being the answer, because of the multiple factors in MPB.

S Foote.
 

Gabe
New member
Username: Gabe

Post Number: 96
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Stephen Foote.

First i must say, i totally agree with you with the "total DHT produced in the hairy areas, that are significant in the back pressure action upon the MPB area" i have hade those thoughts myself and with some observation from how my beard changed and my hair loss also took a change im quit sure i can even categorize the parts of my beard that are in sync with the balding parts of my head...like for instance the chin is correlated with the vertex and ect...the sideburns where you usually get first beard are correlated with temples...or it could be the opposite… just some odd observation of my own nothing special...

Anyways my questions are...

1. Where can i easily the zix ingredient, because i couldn’t seem to be able to get it anywhere in the pharmacy or seller...

2. I've been thinking about the LLLT for a long time never believed it was anything special. now it seems that it obviously does something...so i was thinking of trying it out...should i try out the 8 laser one or is it enough with like 4 or 6?
 

wookster
New member
Username: Wookie

Post Number: 144
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 01:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

If DHT stuimulates hair to produce nitric oxide but due to the lymphatic infrastructure of the MPB prone individual, that the nitric oxide generated via DHT could cause hair loss due to the generation of peroxynitrite?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=12601527&query_hl=31


quote:

Remarkably, basal NO level was enhanced threefold by stimulating dermal papilla cells with 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) but not with testosterone.




With the inadequate lymphatic drainage, it seems reasonable to assume that the nitric oxide would be a negative growth factor on a balding scalp.

http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_cfs.htm


quote:

It can be seen that these arrows form a series of loops that can potentially continue to stimulate each other. An example of this would be that nitric oxide can increase peroxynitrite which can stimulate oxidative stress which can stimulate NF- k B which can increase the production of iNOS which can, in turn increase nitric oxide. This loop alone constitutes a potential vicious cycle


 

Klaas H
New member
Username: Jkkezh

Post Number: 90
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

I notice that hairs along my receding hairline are thicker and blacker than the rest (more like body hair). Could this be caused by increased NO levels..?

And if NO is a bad thing, how come miNOxidil works?
 

Stephen Foote.
New member
Username: Footy

Post Number: 33
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

I just use the basic "original" Zix, ingredient suppliers are in these links.


http://www.advinfoprod.com/hair_loss_treatment_1.htm


http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=52575

I ordered the laser "brush" because the guy seemed to know his stuff, and the price was right. Apart from that i am no expert in the technical aspects of them. I got the 8 version, but i think the 6 would do the same job with slightly longer sessions.

S Foote.
 

Stephen Foote.
New member
Username: Footy

Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 03:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

I think that NO2 is generaly a good thing for hair growth via "Hydraulic" actions, but again i think the problem really lies outside of the MPB area.

I dont think anything that improves the local fluid dynamics in the MPB area, is going to achieve much if there continues to be a "blockage" lower down the system.

This is why i think the topical 5ARI's used on the MPB area, don't work anywhere near as well as the systematic pills. If it was just about DHT in the follicle, you would expect the same kind of results, perhaps an even better effect of the localy stronger topicals. This is clearly not so.

The NO2 pathway clearly has an effect upon hair growth as the last poster said in respect of MiNOXidil

http://www.drproctor.com/archd.htm

I think it's no coincedence that NO2 has been shown to have significant effects on lymphatic pumping, and that androgens, DHT in particular effects NO2.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1682622


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15192027

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9 268139&dopt=Abstract


http://www.annalssurgicaloncology.org/cgi/content/full/11/3_suppl/275S

After i read the last study, i wrote to the author quote:


"Dear Professor Ohhashi.

I was very interested in your research into factors effecting lymphatic vessel contractions.

http://www.annalssurgicaloncology.org/cgi/content/full/11/3_suppl/275S

Perhaps you could answer a testing question for me?

I have suggested evidence for a difference in gender lymphatic drainage efficiency, that would make sense of gender disposition to serious immune dieseases such as lupus.

( Medical Hypotheses (2002) 59 (5), 522-526. doi:10.1016/S0306-9877(02)00259-1, available on line at http://www.idealibrary.com )

I suggest men have far more efficient lymphatic drainage, that could only be so through increased lymph vessel contraction rate effected by androgens. Muscle fibers and other related muscle cells have been shown to have androgen receptor expression.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/10/5245


My question is this. Could sex hormone effects on lymphatic contractions be tested by your methods?

Thank you for your consideration

Best Regards.

Stephen Foote."


Reply quote:


"Dear Dr. Foote;
Thank you very much for your e-mail.
Your idea regarding sex difference in lymphatic pump activity may sound good.
You know there are many papers to evaluate the effects of sex hormones on mechanical activity of vascular smooth muscles and study molecular biological properties of intranuclear steroid hormone receptors. However we have no study regarding the effects of sex hormone on lymphatic pump activity.
Why do not you try the experiments?
Sincerely yours,


Toshio Ohhashi, MD, Ph D"


I then wrote back saying i could not test this myself as i am not a doctor, and had no medical conections. I asked if he would be prepared to do this testing?

Then i just got blanked! No further comment seems to be the norm if you are not in the "club". It can be very frustrating!

In closing here is another laser/lymphedema article, i dont think i posted this before.

http://www.rj-laser.com/english/edema.html


S Foote.
 

jpj
New member
Username: Jpj

Post Number: 293
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

One would think the scalp excercise, this literally moves the scalp back and forth opening the lymph vessel lids and forcing a downward pressure upon them would do more to drain stagnant lymph from the scalp than the brush? I would.


Here are pictures fromt the laser comb study with the comb used alone
http://www.lasercomb.net/beforeafter.htm
They arent that strong by themselves in other words.



I seen an old endojounal link a long time back that said that zinc was only shown to inhibit type 1 alpha five reductase and that copper inhibited type 2 it at a pretty high concentration, but not type one. So using both might be a much better topical than just zinc and b6. Actually, I feel a receptor blocker would be better than either personally.

You can make up your own spiro and formulate it by crushing up the tablets and putting it in any skin cream or crushing them up and putting them in alchohol, but you need a higher concentration in the alchohol for it to be effective (like 3% that was effective in an Italian study that Bryan cites). If the lymph pumps are being androgenically stimulated, this should stop that from happening from all steroid hormones if you use it twice a day because spiro's breakdown substance, careneoic acid, is an effective receptor blocker also with a half life of 10 hours. Spiro is probably effective for a good 13 hours or so after each application.
 

wookster
New member
Username: Wookie

Post Number: 145
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

An exogenous nitric oxide agonist via minoxidil, works at first, but after a time it stops working as effectively, probably due to an increase in the production of superoxide to match the new supply of NO, which will in turn produce more of the damaging peroxynitrite oxidizer ;)

Here is an interesting quote:

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=27324&mod e=full


quote:

( MPB Out-Thinks Minoxidil )

We all notice that MPB 'figures out' Minoxidil after a while and starts to counteract its positive effects. One reason for this could be that a chemical reaction is produced to block the conversion of Minoxidil to Minoxidil Sulfate. This reason has been noticed in many studies that showed minoxidil ineffective in follicles that did not have Phenol-Sulfating phenol sulfotransferase 1. If true, that would explain why minoxidil only grows hair on certain places of the scalp and not others. Minoxidil also increases NO, and MPB matches the increase with Superoxide. The reaction produces Peroxynitrite which puts stress on the mitochondria (minoxidil speeds this up creating a "resistance" of sorts and the detrimental reaction between NO & SO occurs at a rate 6 times greater than that which current treatments containing Cu/Zn are able to inhibit it(i.e. copper & zinc... foliigen/tricomin/zix). In other words by a paradoxical twist of biological and chemical
fate, the more you supplement NO (i.e. through minoxidil) the more there is to react in a detrimental fashion with the Superoxide to form Peroxynitrite which then actually further inhibits your attempts to achieve beneficial vasodilation amongst other things, which you want from minoxidil.) Peroxynitrite, which itself seems to be responsible for depleting NO bioavailability, and subsequently hindering vasodilation, and causing ultimate endothelial dysfunction. The toxicity of Peroxynitrite is mediated through mitochondrial dysfunction which leads to the mitochondria releasing cytochrome C.


 

wookster
New member
Username: Wookie

Post Number: 147
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

An interesting article on two different types of hypertrichotic action:

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/8868027


quote:

Effects of hypertrichotic agents on follicular and nonfollicular cells in vitro.


Kurata S; Uno H; Allen-Hoffmann BL
Wisconsin Regional Primate Research Center, Madison 53715-1299, USA.

Our previous studies revealed that topical minoxidil induced an increased rate of DNA synthesis in both dermal papilla and follicular germinal cells in early anagen and bulbar matrix as well as outer root sheath and perifollicular fibrocytic cells in mid and late anagen follicles in the bald scalp of the stump-tailed macaque. However, the epidermis and dermal fibrocytes showed no response. To determine the specific action of hypertrichotic agents on follicular cells, we examined the effects of two potent hypertrichotic agents, minoxidil and cyclosporin, on the DNA synthesis of cultured cells derived from either follicular cells (dermal papillar, perifollicular fibrocytic and outer root sheath cells) obtained from human and macaque scalps or nonfollicular cells (fibrocytes and epidermal keratinocytes) from human and macaque foreskin, palm and sole regions and the 3T3 cell line. Cultured subconfluent cells from the above follicular and nonfollicular specimens were incubated with either minoxidil (0.01-2 mM) or cyclosporin (0.01-100 mM) in medium (serum-free DMEM) for 48 h, then 3H-thymidine was added for the final 6 h. Minoxidil induced a significant increase in DNA synthesis in all follicular cells in a dose-specific manner (maximum rate at 0.5 mM for dermal papilla and perifollicular fibrocytic cells and 0.1 mM for outer root sheath cells). The perifollicular fibrocytic cells appeared to have a potentiality similar to that of the dermal papilla cells. Nonfollicular cells showed no response to minoxidil; 3T3 cells were rather suppressed. Cyclosporin appeared to have rather suppressive effects on both follicular and nonfollicular cells. These results suggest that minoxidil has a specific affinity to hair follicular cells and induced their cell proliferation. Although cyclosporin is known as a potent hypertrichotic agent, our studies on cultured follicular cells showed no direct proliferative effect.

The hypertrichotic mechanism of cyclosporin appeared to be different from that of minoxidil.




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