| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Hagerty |
Here's a fresh page on which to post comments on this complex subject. | ||
| Tom Hagerty |
S. Foote and jpj: A question for each of you. And these questions in no way imply negative criticism of your views. Stephen, you stated, "I suggest that the primary significant action of DHT as a male hormone, is to increase lymphatic efficiency." Why do you suggest that? Can you give plausible physiological reasons since this is one of the major hypotheses of your theory? jpj, you wrote: One article suggests that blueberry proanthocyanidins seem to help prostate cancer (unrecognized anti-androgen?), they improve VEGF, possibly affect potassium channels, contribute to collagen formation, act as a sort of internal sun screen, promote oxygen in the cells, are the most powerful anti-oxident thats been found, and stay in the body for about seventy hours. They also are used in fighting edema. They are supposedly also a very potent anti-inflammatory. Then you go on to mention apples, grapes, and avocados, also rich in phytochemicals, and suggest that there is a possible synergistic effect. My question is this - Why would you prefer a topical made from the phytochemicals in these foods rather than eating the foods themselves? | ||
| Holly |
Interesting question, Tom. I bought some grapes the other day with seeds in them. I was gonna eat them, but was wondering if I should crush them and put them on topically? | ||
| Paradox |
"Why would you prefer a topical made from the phytochemicals in these foods rather than eating the foods themselves?" I also always wonder why people tend to lean so much toward topicals. Or at the very least, you could take pills with those ingredients. Throw that on top of those foods and now your really talking. | ||
| S Foote. |
JPJ. I don't personaly think the facial aging observation is relevant to my personal theory. Although it may also be related to some action of androgens. I think the proanthocyanidins could make a good topical anti edema/inflammatory. In the case of MPB i believe the edema inflammation is restricted to the MPB area, so i don't see any advantage in the systematic use. S Foote. | ||
| S Foote. |
Hi Tom. Let me first describe my basic reasoning in building my theory. My personal background is over 30 years in mechanical engineering, mainly diagnosing problems in mechanical systems. I don't see any basic principle difference in the evolved biological systems. I considered the MPB issue in terms of evolved purpose and advantage, along with simplicity and efficiency. This lead to the "Hydraulic Dermal Model" described in my paper. http://www.hairsite2.com/library/abst-167.htm This in turn then lead to the obvious relationship between the areas where DHT grows hair, and concentrations of lymphatic vessels. The conclusion according to the theory was that DHT must be increasing lymphatic drainage, leading to lower tissue pressure and larger anagen follicles. Now as an engineer, i think that apart from the basic circulation fuction to provide nutrients and remove waste etc, the "Hydraulic" factors in themselves could be very useful! Multicellular biology evolved in a "Hydraulic" environment (the sea), and we are largely fluid (water). Plenty of scope then for evolution to use fluid dynamic principles in the function of biological systems. For example, consider any secreting gland. The basic raw material for any secretion is tissue fluid. So you have to have a system that in effect produces edema in secreting glands. I suggest many hormones at least in part, achive their effects through such Hydraulics effects. In men testosterone and other male hormones build muscle and other tissues. The analogy i would make is that testosterone is tuning the biological "engine" for higher performance. If you tune an engine, to get the maximum benefits you have to fit a less restrictive exhaust system to promote the gas flow through the engine. If you don't, you won't get the maximum performance potential of the tuning. I suggest the evidence is that DHT is providing the high performance tissue "exhaust" to complement the action of testosterone. Increasing lymphatic drainage, increases the flow rate of fluid through the tissues. This increases nutrient supply and waste removal, enhancing the effects of testosterone. Other evidence for such an action of DHT. We know that low levels of DHT create nervous system effects. If DHT is increasing the natural contractions of lymph vessels, it would have to do this via a nerve effect in the muscle fibres in the vessel walls. http://www.businesslafayette.com/dht.htm This article and others also suggest that building muscle is more difficult with low levels of DHT, as the "exhaust" theory predicts. The side effects recognised with DHT lowering drugs like Propecia, are all "Hydraulic". These include reduced erection performance and ejaculate. Also breast "swelling". I think the opposite hydraulic effects of DHT in different areas, is dependent upon the local "plumbing" as we have discussed in relation to MPB. In areas like the prostate gland, such opposite effects have a distinct advantage in increasing secretions. In evolutionary terms, i don't think human hair patterns have any significance at all. I think they are just a side effect of evolved higher levels of DHT, that offered an advantage in competitive breeding situations in our early development. Most primate societies evolved such breeding advantages, so why not us? http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html Regards. S Foote. | ||
| jpj |
Tom, Advocating Advocado's (Im a poet and don't know it) oil topically to get beta-sitosterol is to avoid the problems of its side effects when used internally at high levels. These side effects of high doses of saw palmetto are described here http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/saw-palmetto/NS_patient-sawpalmetto which include stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, bad breath, abominal discomfort, liver damage, yellowing of the skin, deadaches, dizziness, insomnia, depression, breathing difficulties, muscle pain, high blood pressure, chest pain, abnormal heart rythym, and even heart disease. Some men using saw palmetto report "diffiuculty with erections, testicular discomfort, breast tenderness OR ENLARGEMENT, and changes in sexual desire"-------------------- Thats only Saw Palmetto high does side effects. Beta sitosterol is the common denominator in saw palmetto, pygeum, stinging nettle, and a couple of other natural prostate remedies. Its thought that beta sitosterol is the most powerful ingredient of Saw Palmetto. I would fear that taking high doses of beta sitosterol (or eating about 3 or 4 full avocados a day for a long periods of time) internally would block to many of the body's androgen receptors to DHT. Tom, the reason I think Saw Palmetto is a de facto receptor blocker to DHT or at least binds to DHT in a way as to make it not fit the receptor is this: not only does it relieve prostate hyperplasia like propecia, but an Italian dermatological study on hair which was too short (just three months) showed that it reduced by 67% superficial sebum excretions when used internally and externally. We both know sebaceous glands are androgenically stimulated. The hair study might have been too short, but since we know that DHT levels arent changed by saw palmetto usage, the effect must be in decreasing the uptake in DHT at receptor sites. The SIDE EFFECTS FOR HIGH USAGE OF SAW PALMETTO look just like the side effects of internal and external flutamide. We absolutely know flutamide blocks receptors as it was designed to do, but unfortunately it gets systemically absorbed for awful side effects like those listed above, but even worse. You dont have to take 1000 mgs a day to get those sides either. From what Ive read, those who keep their dosage of saw palmetto below 5-600 mgs a day dont have much to worry about. Loren Pickart, on his web forum, recounted what some bodybuilders who were taking big amounts of Saw Palmettoo told him...........their hair growth improved, but their breast growth unfortunately improved also.........bodybuilders are not supposed to grow tits, so we can concude the SP is pretty powerful if you take a high dose of an extract that has plenty of sterol content. On the polyphenols in apple's, grapes, blueberry's................I agree with your observation to a very large extent. Those three fruits (especially blueberries) are about the most healthy things we can eat. But do we know just how many/much of them we'd have to eat to get the benefit to an extremity like our head hair? The saw palmetto research indicated that taking it internally and using it externally gave us the maximum benefit, and I would propose that using topical proanthocyanidins extracted from grape seeds, and especailly apple peels, and blueberry's along with eating some of them in the diet would be the most effective way to use them. The blueberry proanthocyanidins were the only link with prosate health benefits proposed. Its unclear how exactly they help down there. It would be hard to test topical proanthocyanidins for an anti-androgen effect because they stimulate hair growth on one hand, but an anti-androgen would depress it on the other. The avocado oil however, would be easy to test on your forearm for receptor blocking activity (I need to buy a little of that). One reason Im interested in avocado oil is that avocado's have the highest incidence of beta sitosterol of any substance, and their oil is supposed to be very high in them. Guess who is starting to put it into their shampoo? L'Oreal in its Garnier Fructis line. It also has B2, or riboflavin, in it which is also in Crinagen---a reputed alpha five reductase inhibitor in test tubes. L'Oreal has over 2000 researchers in France. Its the most heavily R&D-oreiented cosmetics company in the world (I read that in an article about a year back)....................what in the world are they slipping that into their shampoos that promise to deliever "stronger" hair for? Any indication that blocks or interferes with androgen receptor uptake is considered a "pharmacuetical action", therefore if L'Oreal believes the beta-sitosterol is doing this...................they cant "say it" in advertising. I tested revivogen on my arm to see if it would reduce hair growth, it did and did it fairly drammatically in a little over two months. It did this despite the proanthocyanidins (growth stimulant) therein from grape seed (not blueberry) extract. Im interested in what SP oil, and/or avocado oil could do there. I need to get started on that. I also want to try spiro on the other forearm in a spot, and see what two doses a day can do. I appreciate the forum by the way Tom. Its good to get to hypothesize and discuss things with adults geniuinely looking for what helps here. I, as you know, believe men and women suffering from thinning hair at young ages DESERVE to know what they can do about it, especially what they can do that wont cost them an arm and a leg or require them to get surgery. | ||
| jpj |
Tom, The second article that Stephen linked had this quote "In the human body only a very small percentage of testosterone (our primary anabolic hormone) is free at any given time to interact with cellular receptor sites. This is because the vast majority (98%) will form temporary complexes with the plasma binding protiens Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) and albumin (the distribution between the two is roughly equal), whcih prevent the hormone (testosterone) from exerting activity in the body." So if green tea ups globulin, and high glycemic index foods like white bread and pasta lower it................so that 98% of our testosterone is not "bound" and only say......88% of it is, is it any wonder men in the West bald so much more often than other men. Look at how much more testosterone is freely available for conversion at the alpha five redcutase sites in each and every hair in his body's root sheath (alpha five type 2) and sebocytes, sebaceous glands (type 1), producting DHT from the free T that has 3 or 4 times the affinity for the androgen receptors than just plain'ol T does..... | ||
| SpaceCowboy |
jpj, so are you saying that eating such foods as white bread and pasta lowers globulin therefore allowing more testoterone in our bodies to be "free" to convert into DHT? what things other than green tea raises globulin levels? do we want high globulin levels in our bodies? | ||
| jpj |
Spacecowboy, Foods with a high glycemic index get our bodies overtime to become somewhat insulin-resistant. When your bod becomes insulin-resistant (which means insulin isnt having as much effect as it should have on you), it will make more insulin. When it (your body) makes more insulin, for whatever reason...............the bod seems to think it needs more testosterone to deal with the extra insulin being produced. The adrenal glands located behind your kidney pump out a little more Testosterone and globulin levels go down. The pre-WW2 Japanese had much less baldness than they do now. Green tea and soy foods (with the isoflavones like soy milk, tofu, etc., were the staples of their diets. They also did not drink cow milk or eat much red meat (especially fatty red meat like in a hamburger). They ate alot of fish. They ate alot of veggies. Now they eat KFC and McDonalds. Sugary drinks, pasta, white breads have oodles of carbohydrates, but if you dont burn carbs, they get stored as fat. I understand that some experiments testing the higher fat in diets as it relates to hairloss have somewhat inconclusive results. Therefore, like Bryan Shelton, I think I'll put my money on the high glycemic index foods leading to a little more and a little less bound (or free) testosterone. If you think about it, if its normal for 98% of your testosterone to be carried around the body by albumin and globulin, if you just have a measley 2% reduction of that to 96%, youve practically doubled the amount of testosterone available to your hair. Not good man. Fruits and veggies and fish and nuts will make your skin glow and are good for your hair. You'll live alot longer and feel well too, with much less tendency to pack on the pounds. | ||
| Armando |
Jpj A few years before, I developed a product in order to stop baldness and if it is possible try to regain the recently hair lost. My bet is based in a hair lotion containing Jojoba oil as a base and certain essential oils. Among them there is avocado oil, lipid extract of saw palmeto, and salvia officinalis. Also contain tea tree oil, rose hip oil, etc. My product contain a very good shampoo with aloe vera, spiruline extract and, curiously, grape seed extract. My company is not L'Oreal but I am also interested in hair biology. If you want, I'll send you a sample to test my method. Only I want your sincere and realistic veredict. BTW if anyone of the presents also want to test my product, there is no problem. My e-mail info@disnatural.com Armando | ||
| Downunder |
Steve I follow your theory and performance example. So a question. You discuss the testosterone/DHT and lymph system being a restriction on performance. Now in most men the testosterone levels drop off with age. I actually think it was you who provided a good illustration of this in a post, as I wanted to use it and you did not reply (but it may have been someone else, just going off memory). So if testosterone decreases then this should lower the lymph system requirement to drain, and effectively the performance of the overall system should start to increase. So by the time MPB has started, there must be some other restrictions preventing the recovery of the system in your theory. I can only assume it is that the lymph system has got way out of scale by this time. You could say it has run-away by this time. Could you please explain if this is the case or what creates such a "snow-balling effect"? | ||
| SpaceCowboy |
jpj, Other than fruits, vegetables, nuts, and fish, what other kinds of foods are low-glycemic? | ||
| Paradox |
Actually, not all fruits, vegetables and nuts are low on the glycemic index. I would also look at the kidneys themselves to be a problem. If you can find a way to "detox" the kidneys (I guess) that could only hasten the recovery. Though I've never seen pics or anything, I've read a couple stories of regrowth (full regrowth too) from diet. Things like alkalizing diets and such. It may take a while, but I believe it could only help. These were on other sites, not here. | ||
| jpj |
Paradox, an alkalizing diet would be full of veggies and fruits and nuts (it would have to be) and thus pretty much the same thing as a low glycemic index diet. The pre-WW2 Japanese diet that seen a low incidince of hairloss was heavy on soy, green tea, veggies, fish, fruits, fowl and low on dairy, red meat, processed food of any kind (this includes canned soup, etc.....that appears to be healthy but is still processed). You can imagine how little candy these folks would have seen also. Armando, After doing a lot (late night) of research of sources of beta-sitosterol naturally, Ive found that even avocado oil is only .5% Beta-sitosterol. There is not majic natural compound that contains a great deal of Beta-Sis. Rice has alot of Beta Sis, Peanuts have a great deal too (as peanut oil especially), Flax has it, pumpkin seeds have it. However, after the reading I did last night, just the saw palmetto oil thats sold on hairsite proboably contains the highest amount of beta-sis that one could by in one solution from a completely natural source (and not a product). In other words, revivogen proboably had more beta-sis than I could get unless I was willing to perform alot of kitchen-sink chemistry. For now, Im just stickin' with spiro. BTW, my shampoo that I use occasionally has jojoba in it. And I do have a little jojobba oil that I occasionally pre-soak my hair in hopes of getting rid of excess sebum. However, until proven otherwise I believe in the direct theory of hairloss, even as I am intriqued with Stephen's hypothesis and read his posts about it. | ||
| Paradox |
I know that an alkalizing diet is fruits, vegetables and nuts. What I was saying is that some fruits and vegetables are high on the glycemic index. Granted, not as high as white bread and processed stuff, but still kind of high. Potatoes come to mind. Can't remember any others. Search "glycemic index" and you'll find a list. | ||
| S Foote. |
"Steve I follow your theory and performance example. So a question. You discuss the testosterone/DHT and lymph system being a restriction on performance. Now in most men the testosterone levels drop off with age. I actually think it was you who provided a good illustration of this in a post, as I wanted to use it and you did not reply (but it may have been someone else, just going off memory). So if testosterone decreases then this should lower the lymph system requirement to drain, and effectively the performance of the overall system should start to increase. So by the time MPB has started, there must be some other restrictions preventing the recovery of the system in your theory. I can only assume it is that the lymph system has got way out of scale by this time. You could say it has run-away by this time. Could you please explain if this is the case or what creates such a "snow-balling effect"?" Hi Downunder. A few points are relevant here i think. First, i think there is proportionately more DHT being converted from testosterone in the scalp, than in the body in general. This is because the large scalp follicles must be capable of producing far more DHT than the vellous body follicles. Secondly, over time the growing beard follicles start to add to the amount of DHT feeding the head and neck lymphatics. So even as testosterone levels decline, the amount of DHT where it matters in MPB, can actualy be increasing. Thirdy, if as i propose it is edema in the MPB area that causes the hair loss, this tends to be self maintaining as i have referenced before. The increased protein levels effect the local osmotics, and in time the secondary inflammation and fibrosis tend to lock the follicles in the miniaturised state. So even if you remove DHT altogether, this doesn't mean you can reverse MPB. I think the treatment experience with Propecia/Dut testifies to this. I think these factors explain why the progress of MPB doesn't match the systematic level of testosterone. I also think because of the third factor, that it is important to topicaly treat the edema/inflammation/fibrosis in MPB. Regards. S Foote. | ||
| jpj |
Interesting point Stephen, Ive noticed many men with thick eyebrows (which arent androgenically sensitive, but do have alpha five reductase enzymes) often go bald. Extra DHT made there.......for upstairs. | ||
| Holly |
jpj, I'm interested in what you have to say about the topical use of avocados. Before this hairloss crap happened to me, I was using a product for skin that was supposed to "help" reverse skin aging, acne and acne scars. The main active ingredient was some enzyme of avocado - not the oil. This very smart biochemist developed this line of skin products that he now markets to doctors and skin care professionals. Anyway, he gave a bunch of people several products to try for a few months to see if it helped acne and reversing scars. I only used the product for 2 to 3 months (stopped because my hair loss became evident during this time and I then had bigger fish to fry!) and it really smoothed out my skin. I have since restarted the products. Anyway, this might be nuts, but I think you should talk to him. He has done years of reseach on this, and he might know something about the reversal of fibrosis in the hair follicle using this enzyme topically. I know he is main focus has been skin, but the action of hair follicles is similar, yes? What do you think? | ||
| jpj |
Holly, I was interested in avocados because by chance I had read an article that claimed that they had the highest incidence of beta-sitosterol (what is thought to be the active ingredient in saw palmetto, pumpkin seeds, nettle, pygeum) of any fruit. I also got interested because in a L'Oreal Garnier Fructis commercial, I noticed the back of some bottle of a Garnier Fructis product had B2 (Riboflavin, a test-tube DHT inhibitor) and avocado oil. The shampoo aslo has sugar cane extract (alot of beta sitosterol comparitively in that) and apple peel extract (proanthocyanidins). I have learned that if a product claims to "block an androgen receptor" that it is considered a "pharmaceutical action" and thus cannot be marketed as a cosmetic, but instead a drug. Doing a little research on beta-sitosterol, I found out that there is no real superfood with a huge amount of the stuff. Avocado oil is 0.5% beta-sitosterol. Rice has the most beta-sis, and almonds and peanuts (peanut oil) has it too. Castor beans (castor oil, which is in a few L'Oreal products and Alpecin) also has it. I wonder if these cosmetic companies put this stuff in these shampoos thinking they are inhibiting DHT uptake at receptor sites. Here is why I think beta sis, and saw palmetto interefere with androgen receptors. I seen an Italian Study of saw palmetto (with a high sterol content) used internally, and in shampoo and an after shower lotion. The study only went for three months, so I DO NOT value it for hair counts because seasonal hair growth can account for increased hair counts in a study that is that short. HOWEVER, superficial sebum secretions decreased by 67% in subjects who used internal, and external saw palmetto. Sebaceous glands are androgenically stimulated. That big of a decrease indicates to me that something was getting in the receptors way in its uptake of DHT (and proboably other male hormones too). We know that spironolactone is used topically for acne. Acne is when the sebaceous glands and sebocytes during puberty pump out too much sebum. Microbials live in the stuff, and sebum spoils (rancid), and can elicit an inflammatory response and white blood cells from the body. All sorts of bactreria and fungals can make a home in sebum that is not expelled from the body, hence the redness, irritation, white blood cells (pus) of teenage years. Avocado oil, perhaps has enough beta-sis to slow some of this activity? who knows. Hairsite has a vendor that sells topical saw palmetto oil. Its to be used twice a day. Spiro, a synthetic androgen-receptor blocker gets changed into a weaker anti-androgen in 3.97 hours. The other anti-androgen (carneroic acid, or some such) lasts about the same length of time. This is why its advised to use it twice a day for hair. On wikipedia, there is info on avocados. Apparently very healthy stuff as far as anti-oxidants etc. are concerned. All sorts of good things in it. Ive noticed its used in skin/hair products now that Ive looked for it somewhat. Its a staple of the Central American/Mexican diet. They have low rates of prostate cancer down there. Coincidence? Proboably an effective anti-androgen. In fact, one article I read stated a patent had been taken out in Japan for the use of beta-sitosterol topically for alopecia. Too bad that there is no substance that is something like 10% beta sis. I suppose one could put it (or peanut oil for instance) on their arm for an extended period of time to see if it reduced arm hair growth (a good test of an anti-androgen.................I did this with revivogen and it worked quite well). Ive read a few articles here and there about blueberry proanthocyanidins and prostate cancer. Wondering if there is some anti-androgen properties there. They are supposed to be the most powerful proanthocyanidin out there, ahead of apples and grape seeds/pulp. By the way..........copper peptides sure do a number on skin. Mine looks better than it has in the past few years. | ||
| Tom Hagerty |
Holly: You wrote, "This very smart biochemist developed this line of skin products that he now markets to doctors and skin care professionals." Who is this very smart biochemist? I'd like to read some of his stuff. | ||
| Paradox |
Dude, I remember Foote literally owning Brian for talking about sh*t he didn't really understand. Using things out of context and stuff like that. That being said, I wouldn't take him as some sort of 'expert'. It's sort of like other people I see taking misinterpretations and running with them. If you honestly don't understand things, you shouldn't comment. Either that or seek understanding. but I feel no sympathy for people who THINK they know what they're talking about. Those are usually people who give out bad advice too. To say you believe this or that is one thing. But to state it as fact is irresponsible and misleading. | ||
| jpj |
OK Paradox, what is your suggested regimine to combat male pattern baldness? What do you suggest would be helfpul? Ive stated many times what I think would help....... | ||
| Paradox |
No, no, no I'm not doing that. I know what I will use, if it works, you'll know. If not, you'll know. It's not about me being secretive. It's about me not wanting to be criticized. | ||
| Holly |
Hey Paradox, Help a poor girl out! Please tell us what you think will work! This hair loss thing is killing me - I don't know what else to do, but go on rogaine, which I really wanted to avoid for the time being. I'd be very grateful to hear any suggestions. |
