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Mikhail
New member
Username: Mphatesmpb

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

I have limited knowledge of the cellular structure of hair follicles, so please correct any misconceptions that I have about the biology of hair loss.

I've read that the dermal papillae cells collectively act as a "control center" for the hair follicle. This seems to make sense since the capillaries nourishing the follicle are connected to the dermal papillae cells. The dermal papillae cells have also been noted to have androgen receptors to which DHT can bind itself. Although I have read other articles stating that MPB-induced hair loss is caused by DHT acting on the shaft portion of the hair follicle, I think that since the dermal papillae are considered the "control centers" for the hair follicle that MPB is more the result of DHT acting on the receptors in the dermal papillae cells. If MPB is in fact caused by DHT acting on the hair shaft, then I would imagine that the primary factor in MPB is DHT that is produced in the sebaceous glands, and then deposited on the hair shaft. The other possibility (the more likely one, in my opinion) is that MPB is caused by serum DHT acting on the androgen receptors of the dermal papillae cells.

Look at this article:
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/content/abstract/156/1/59

"Balding cells contained significantly (P < 0.01) greater levels of androgen receptors (Bmax = 0.06 +/- 0.01 fmol/10(4) cells (mean +/- S.E.M.)) than those from non-balding scalp (0.04 +/- 0.001). "



All of this suggests to me that male pattern baldness progresses as the dermal papillae cells of hair follicles begin to express the androgen receptors to which DHT binds. If I am not mistaken, "expression of androgen receptors" just means that the cell are beginning to produce the protein which serves as the androgen receptor. So once the cell produces the androgen receptors, it becomes a target for DHT, and therefore susceptible to miniaturization. Does that seem reasonable to you guys?

So what if there was a way to prevent expression of androgen receptors in the dermal papillae cells? This article seems to suggest that exposure to I3C (but not its metabolite DIM) reduces expression of the androgen receptor in prostate cancer cells. (Recall that I3C is a compound found in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, which is converted to DIM during digestion.)

http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/11/1896

I have read about people using DIM in topical solutions and having no success. But the following article explains that DIM does not have the same effect of reducing the total amount of androgen receptors.

So what if dermal papillae cells are exposed to IC3 in a topical solution? that would reduce expression of the ARs in the dermal papillae cells, and thus reduce their response to serum DHT.

What do you guys think?
 

Michael K
New member
Username: Firsthomeagain

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Interesting. I've been considering using an I3C supplement as well as apple polyphenols, but I'm reluctant to spend my money on anything that I'm not sure will give me results. I am not aware that I3C is sold yet as a topical solution for the scalp but I'd be happy using it in tablet form. The only question is how much would I have to take for it to make any significant long-term difference to my hair. On the strength of what you have provided though I'm seriously considering buying some, not least because of its potential anti-cancer properties.
 

Michael K
New member
Username: Firsthomeagain

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Sorry, I take back what I said about I3C supplementation. Just found this...

" In most animal models, exposure to a chemical carcinogen is required to cause cancer. When administered before or at the same time as the carcinogen, oral I3C has been found to inhibit the development of cancer in a variety of animal models and tissues, including cancers of the mammary gland (breast) (51, 52), uterus (53), stomach (54), colon (55, 56), lung (57), and liver (58, 59). However, a number of studies have found that I3C actually promoted or enhanced the development of cancer when administered chronically after the carcinogen (post-initiation). The cancer-promoting effects of I3C were first reported in a trout model of liver cancer (60, 61). However, I3C has also been found to promote cancer of the liver (62-64), thyroid (64), colon (65, 66), and uterus (67) in rats. More recently, inclusion of I3C in the maternal diet was found to protect the offspring from lymphoma and lung tumors induced by dibenzo[a,l]pyrene, a polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (68). Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons are chemical pollutants formed during incomplete combustion of organic substances, such as coal, oil, wood, and tobacco (69). Although the long-term effects of I3C supplementation on cancer risk in humans are not known, the contradictory results of animal studies have led several experts to caution against the widespread use of I3C and DIM supplements in humans until their potential risks and benefits are better understood "

Take it at your own risk I suppose.
 

Tom Hagerty
Moderator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 4044
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Mikhail and Michael K:

There are many topics in these messages that I'd like to examine and write something about. But I'm going to look at just three of the ideas.

1. "If I am not mistaken, 'expression of androgen receptors' just means that the cells are beginning to produce the protein which serves as the androgen receptor."

All receptors are proteins. Some are in the plasma membrane; some are in the nucleus of the cell. DHT is a steroid hormone and therefore its receptors are in the nucleus of the cell. The receptor sites for all steroid hormones are withing the nucleus, or rather in its membrane.

But this is the key statement: "Balding cells contained significantly greater levels of androgen receptors than those from non-balding scalp"

2. "I've read that the dermal papillae cells collectively act as a 'control center' for the hair follicle."

Maybe this is true, but what does the control center mean? The area of the hair follicle where the stem cells originate, the bulge, is an extremely important part of the hair follicle too. The stem cells form all the layers of the new hair follicle during the anagen stage of the hair cycle. So what area of the follicle triggers the hair cycle clock? Perhaps that area is the dermal papilla.

3. I've studied phytonutrients including those from broccoli and the other cruciferous vegetables. The vitamin companies I'm sure will synthesize the "active" ingredients in these vegetables and others so that you don't have to eat the whole vegetable. You can swallow just the active molecules.

I prefer to eat the whole broccoli and get all the nutrients in their natural form, all working synergistically as they are digested and assimilated. I take a few supplements like full spectrum E with tocotrienols because it's hard to get enough vitamin E from food. The other "supplements" I take, though, are real foods - cod liver oil and brewer's yeast powder. But I don't overindulge in any power food and that includes green tea.

Thanks to both of you for these messages. My three-part answer is really just asking more questions. I have no final answers to anything.
 

Mikhail
New member
Username: Mphatesmpb

Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply. I have been eating a plate full of raw broccoli everyday now after reading about how DIM competes with DHT for androgen receptors to bind with. Since DIM is a receptor antagonist, it does not cause any biological response. If more androgen receptors are "occupied" by DIM, then the effects of DHT would be reduced. It makes sense to me.

I've also read about tocotrienols. Which supplement do you use Tom?

Can you also direct me to some reliable websites explaining what about tocotrienols, cod liver oil, and brewer's yeast might have a positive effect on hair loss?

Do you have any particular reasons as to avoiding green tea? The material that I have read (particularly the fact that compounds in green tea act as inhibitors of the 5-alpha reductase found in scalp sebaceous glands, and the fact that green tea increases SHBG) suggests that it would definitely help in fighting hair loss.

In other news, I finally got over my 2-month period of semi-denial today. When I decided to accept it I honestly couldn't help tears from welling in my eyes...but now I intend on doing everything I can to slow or halt the process. I talked to my dad today and he gave me a pep talk. The situation is still quite scary for me. Thanks Tom for running this site. It helps a lot that there are people to talk to about this issue.
 

Mikhail
New member
Username: Mphatesmpb

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Hi Tom,

Just a few more thoughts:

Is it better to eat the broccoli raw? I am thinking that this would preserve the nutrients, whereas steaming or boiling would reduce the nutrients. But I have noticed that the raw broccoli gives me some serious gas.

Also:
Do you think I should start minoxidil?

My hair loss is still in its early stages. I observe some recession at the temples, but only when i pull my hair back. Otherwise my hair seems pretty healthy and thick. Even more so as a result of changes in my diet and overall lifestyle during the last couple of months.

I really don't want to use propecia because of the potential side effects. I am thinking minoxidil will be a better option for me.
I know that early intervention ensures a higher chance of success, but is there such a thin as TOO early? Can minoxidil actually aggravate the balding process if I start taking it while my hair loss is still in its elementary stages?

I think I've read one of your previous posts that the scalp exercises (which I've been doing religiously) and the changes in diet can "potentiate" the effects of minoxidil. Can you elaborate further on that idea?

Thanks again,
Mikhail
 

Tom Hagerty
Moderator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 4045
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Mikhail:

Certain phytonutrients like lycopene are more bioavailable if the vegetables are cooked. Stewed tomatoes will provide more bioavailable lycopene than uncooked tomatoes. I'm not sure about the nutrients in broccoli, but I never eat broccoli that is not steamed because it makes gas. I tend not to believe these nutrition gurus who want you to eat all raw foods. I sense a little fanaticism in these people.

I get Full Spectrum E with Tocotrienols from Swanson. It's a little expensive but it's the best I've found. Do a search on Google for tocotrienols and you'll find informative articles. Look for the articles by Dr. Andrew Weil.

I drink green iced tea but I don't drink or eat too much of any food no matter how nutritious it is. It's healthier to have a balanced diet of lots of foods high in nutrients. There is no one magic food.

You'll also find many articles on brewer's yeast and cod liver oil by doing a Google search. Never take too much cod liver oil though. You do not want too much vitamin A in your diet. This can be really bad for hair health.

"Do you think I should start minoxidil?"

This is something you will have to decide for yourself after doing a lot of research. I would never use any drug that has to be taken or applied for the rest of my life though. Drugs like these, minox and finasteride, are great for the pharmaceutical companies but perhaps not too great for the people using them in the long run.

Read these articles - Exercise and Angiogenesis, Two Articles. I think you'll find here some strong reasons why the scalp exercise often produces stabilizaion of hair loss and even new growth of terminal hair.

Look through the Index of articles and you might find some other material worth reading. You are determined to save your hair. Doing some serious study is an important first step.
 

Mikhail
New member
Username: Mphatesmpb

Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Monday, August 02, 2010 - 04:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Just a quick question, Tom:

I'm looking at the Swanson Vitamin E Supplement (http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU209/ItemDetail)

Is it alright that this supplement contains 329% of the daily recommended value of vitamin E. I understand that overdoses of certain vitamins (like C) aren't harmful, but overdoses of other vitamins can be very dangerous.

Do you take the supplement daily?

Also, thanks for your dedication Tom. I appreciate your thoughtful responses to my questions and observations.

-Mikhail
 

Tom Hagerty
Moderator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 4047
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Mikhail:

Many nutritionists who I respect recommend 100 IU of natural vitamin E. That's exactly what you get in this supplement. But some nutritionists recommend 400 to 600 IU. I think that is overkill.
 

Mikhail
New member
Username: Mphatesmpb

Post Number: 41
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

I've found some information which suggests that it is better to consume the vegetables raw. Glucosinolate is the metabolic precursor of DIM, which competes with DHT at AR binding sites. According to the same site, broccoli is not the best source of these compounds. Broccoli only has 0.6 mg glucosinates per edible gram, whereas other vegetables like brussels sprouts, garden cress, and mustard greens each have more than 2.0 mg/g. Anyway, the quote about cooking:

"Glucosinolates are water-soluble compounds that may be leached into cooking water. Boiling cruciferous vegetables from 9-15 minutes resulted in 18-59% decreases in the total glucosinolate content of cruciferous vegetables (90). Cooking methods that use less water, such as steaming or microwaving, may reduce glucosinolate losses. Some cooking practices, including boiling (91), steaming (92), and microwaving at high power (850-900 watts) (93, 94), may inactivate myrosinase, the enzyme that catalyzes glucosinolate hydrolysis. Even in the absence of plant myrosinase activity, the myrosinase activity of human intestinal bacteria results in some glucosinolate hydrolysis (6). However, studies in humans have found that inactivation of myrosinase in cruciferous vegetables substantially decreases the bioavailability of glucosinolate hydrolysis products known as isothiocyanates (91-93). Since the formation of I3C also depends on glucosinolate hydrolysis, it is very likely that the bioavailability of I3C and its acid condensation products would also be decreased by myrosinase inactivation."

I guess I'm gonna be making a trip to the grocery store for some brussels sprouts. :-)
 

Tom Hagerty
Moderator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 4078
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Mikhail:

Some phytonutrients like lycopene are more bioavailable when the vegetables are cooked. I prefer vegetables steamed. Even though steaming might destroy some enzymes, the vegetables taste better that way, at least to me.

I've been around people who eat only raw vegetables because of what they've read on Dr. Mercola's website. These people always seem to have gas problems. They are hard to be around.

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