| Author | Message | ||
     Common sense |
Here's why I think the SE works: DHT is the known cause for MPB. Why does this only seem to affect the scalp and why does DHT not cause hairloss in say the chest or the legs? If you look at the difference between these areas you can see that on other areas of the body, hair grows where there is movement of the skin, bone, tendons, muscle etc. The scalp is an area where there is no movement and if you notice a completely bald persons scalp it is often shiny and tight looking. There is no movement in the scalp (and there is none for many years) and perhaps this why DHT and other chemicals build up in this area and are allowed to accumulate therefore damaging the hair follicles. You can see in a typical male person (who suffers from MPB) that late in the MPB stages there is a perfect U shape at the top of their heads. Why does DHT damage the follicles at the top and not the back or sides? Because there is sufficient stimulation and bloodflow in these areas (although very slight) when the head is turned from side to side or up and down (regular common movements). Therefore the top area is the furthest away part which lacks any kind of stimulation. Just look at the head.. there is no movement whatsoever in the scalp, but there is lots of regular movement in the jaw and there is also lot of hair growth there. This is why the SE must work - IF PERFORMED REGULARLY AND THOROUGHLY - as it stimulates the dormant areas and prevents DHT build up and over time reduces DHT in this area allowing the hair follicles to continue about their daily business. And there we have it.. a near enough cure which requires lots and lots of patience, consistency and determination - why most people won't achieve results through it. | ||
| Anonymous |
That makes alot of sense. Then please help me make sense of why it didnt work for someone like me who has been doing it with alot of discipline for over a year and half while steadily losing hair. | ||
| Bradley |
Common sense, your name and description say it all. Your idea is so simple and "common" that we often overlook the concept. Your hypothesis makes 100% sense to me and makes me even more excited about the Scalp Exercises. I hope Tom takes a look at this message and offers his thoughts. | ||
| Bon |
As far as I know MPB is not a matter of blood circulation. I hope it is that simple, but I doubt it. That does not mean I am not a believer in the SE program. I am on my third month. | ||
| Anonymous |
Same here. i can debunk this really quick. Most people tend to notice the first signs of hairloss in the temples. No shortage of movement there. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yes, Tom did SE because he observed this point. People tend to ignore that their hairloss process have taken some many years to happen. I read a book from japan about the skill of breathing. One of the point stated that the skin cell is the last place that oxgyen can go here. That somewhat explain why the sedentary worker tend to be bald. You can do a experiment. After you run and swear, your skin and scaple are prone to refresh. So, Men, it take many years to make you bald and don't expect quick solution to fix this. Keep going! | ||
| Common sense |
Anonymous: I can't say why it didn't work for you. Maybe you weren't doing it right or maybe there are other factors which have contributed to your hairloss. I've not yet been doing it long enough to see results for myself but this is the only credible solution I have found to hairloss and it's the most effective way I can see to combat hairloss. Bradley: It's not my idea it's Tom's. But it is a bloody good idea nonetheless. I have also added scalp massages to my program as the SE provides forward and backward movement whereas massages add movement in all directions. Bon: You're right MPB isn't a matter of blood circulation... at least not for people who don't produce DHT in their bodies. Perhaps normal blood circulation is not sufficient to remove build up of DHT in the scalp. Anonymous: You can't debunk this really quickly because lots of people who have visited this sight have had success with the SE and Tom started with thinning in the temple areas and has had huge success. | ||
| Bon |
Common Sense, Anonymous2 was referring to your explanation and not the SE's effectiveness. These are two different things. | ||
| Common sense |
Bon, Yes I see what you mean. Perhaps there is not enough movement / activity or stimulation in the temple area because it is an area more prone for DHT build in certain people. I dont know for certain... I haven't studied the anatomy of the head so I can't say for sure. I am experiencing hairloss at the top (peak) of my head and my front hairline and temple areas are absolutely fine. I don't think one statement can answer all questions... I am making a general comment on the effect of the SE on the scalp. | ||
| Bon |
I am experiencing hairloss at the top (peak) of my head and my front hairline and temple areas are absolutely fine.> yes. same here.lets hope the SE affects the vertex too. I hate having to go the drug way. | ||
| Tom Hagerty |
I read through this thread several times. The questions raised and the comments made make me realize how much I don't understand about the causes and treatment options of hair loss. One thing I'm certain of though - the scalp exercise when it's done correctly quickens lymphatic drainage. Any basic biology textbook will state that muscle movement will speed up lymph flow in the areas adjacent to the contracting muscles. This in turn will remove metabolic waste products in the area. The scalp exercise will definitely speed up lymph flow in the scalp area. My thinking is that this along with other benefits - increased blood flow, angiogenesis, scalp elasticity - will make the scalp tissue a more healthy environment for terminal hair follicles. The DHT riddle is complex. Perhaps some of the contributors to this thread might find the following article by Ivy Greenwell instructive. I have underlined what I think are important sentences in Ivy's article. MALE PATTERN BALDNESS: IS THAT LIKE ALZHEIMER'S? HORMONAL AND VASCULAR MYSTERIES OF HAIR "Well, there is at least one factor that androgenic baldness and Alzheimer's disease have in common: atherosclerosis. The lining of blood vessels produces nitric oxide (NO, as in MiNOxidol, the active ingredient in Rogaine) and possibly other hair growth factors; when this lining is damaged through the accumulation of atherosclerotic plaque, less nitric oxide (NO) is produced. "Please don't draw the wrong conclusion that a balding man is doomed to go on to Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's. Like most men, he'll probably die of heart disease, which is a much better way to die. Also, 40% of men die before their 75th birthday, which also helps account for the lower rate of brain disease in the male population. Still, what happens in the scalp of a balding person (including inflammation and free-radical damage) does seem to bear resemblance to what probably goes on in the brain tissue of brain-disease victims. "The incidence of male pattern (androgenic) baldness has been found to be the highest among college professors, and lowest among skid-row winos. Winos are also known to have the cleanest arteries in the world (which of course doesn't save them from dying of cirrhosis of the liver). Could there be a connection? Let me remind you that alcohol is an excellent vasodilator -- there is perhaps nothing quite like alcohol for dilating those peripheral blood vessels. And vasodilatation implies nitric oxide release. (I'm not recommending that anyone take up drinking. For years now I've been haunted by the question of whether it's possible to duplicate the benefits of alcohol in a non-alcoholic way, which would be vastly preferable. For women, estrogens seem to do something very similar, but what about men?) "For unknown reasons, androgenic baldness is more common among blond men than dark-haired men and among Caucasians than among other races. First of all, however, we need to address the most obvious question: why is baldness so prevalent among men, and relatively rare among women, especially premenopausal women? "We need to look here at how hormones affect hair. Estrogens promote the growth of scalp hair, while they inhibit the growth of hair elsewhere on the body; DHT, the strong form of testosterone, promotes the growth of body hair, facial hair, but it appears to inhibit the growth of scalp hair. The amount of DHT produced in the skin in turn depends on the amount of the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase available for the conversion of testosterone to DHT. Men with congenital deficiency of 5-alpha-reductase have small prostates, do not develop prostate cancer (no case has ever been reported), have little body hair, and do not grow bald. "Women often notice increased hair loss when there is a sudden drop in estrogens: post-partum, after stopping the Pill, and at the onset of menopause. It is estimated that a woman may lose as much as 20% of her hair at menopause. Both post-partum and menopausal hair loss, however, are not classified as androgenic alopecia, but as "endocrine alopecia," which should really be called "estrogen-withdrawal alopecia." "Severely hyperandrogenic women, on the other hand, can suffer from male pattern baldness even at a young age. Still, a woman can be hyperandrogenic without necessarily showing signs of androgenic alopecia, but she may have acne and increased facial and body hair. Or a woman can have androgenic alopecia without acne and/or hirsutism. This seems to be a highly individual matter. "Typically, however, it is men who start losing hair fairly early in life, sometimes already in their twenties. Men produce a lot more DHT than women do, since obviously men produce a lot more testosterone than women do (DHEA can also serve as a raw material for DHT). But it's not the serum level of DHT that seems to matter, but the local conversion of androgens to DHT in the scalp. "Let me stress this point: it is the LOCAL excess DHT production that seems to be the root of the problem. THE SCALP FOLLICLES OF GENETICALLY SUSCEPTIBLE INDIVIDUALS HAVE MORE OF THE ENZYME 5-ALPHA-REDUCTASE, RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONVERSION OF TESTOSTERONE TO DHT. Most women are protected by having (1) less testosterone, (2) less 5-alpha-reductase needed to convert T to DHT, and also (3) by having more aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol. "It is interesting to note that male teenagers and young men, with their tremendously high testosterone output (T production begins to decline very gradually after the age of 25) tend to have a full head of hair but generally not that much chest hair and facial hair. On the other hand, it's not unusual to see lots of chest hair and a full flowing beard on a severely balding middle-aged man. Apparently the local production of DHT, perhaps as compensation for low serum androgens, is a significant factor here. We do not yet understand how serum DHT and peripheral DHT are related, but one hypothesis is that there is an inverse relationship. It's just a hypothesis. Estrogens are vasodilators: they promote the release of NO from the blood vessel lining. It's also possible that estrogens increase superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity (at least that's one of the effects of the birth-control pill). SOD quenches the superoxide radical, a very nasty little beastie that apparently inhibits NO release. "DHT acts in a more perfidious way. Here is one emerging view of it: DHT seems to induce class-II antigens within the follicle. The immune system then perceives the follicle as a "foreign body," and targets it for destruction. Progesterone inhibits 5-alpha-reductase, and it can compete with other androgens for androgen receptors (progesterone could be classified as a "non-masculinizing androgen"). Topical progesterone can thus arrest the progression of baldness, but it doesn't promote regrowth. I repeat: there is no evidence that progesterone promotes regrowth. Just decreasing DHT in the scalp can at best arrest the progression of baldness. Proscar (finasteride) also decreases DHT by inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase. Proscar produces close to 70% reduction in serum DHT, but only about 34% reduction in skin DHT. Still, virtually all men taking Proscar (5 mg finasteride) report that the progression of baldness is arrested. But is a big reduction of serum DHT beneficial, or can it in fact be harmful? (Hint: DHT can't be aromatized to estradiol, and estradiol has been implicated in prostate cancer. We discuss it later in this issue - see the comment by Dr. Zava.) "CORTISOL and cortisone, the so-called "stress hormones," are also androgens and are possibly implicated in baldness. We know for sure that they are involved in acne. Anecdotally, stress is known to cause hair loss. One study (Schmidt 1994) did find SIGNIFICANTLY ELEVATED CORTISOL IN ANDROGENIC ALOPECIANS, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE, as compared with controls. It also found alopecians to have significantly elevated androstenedione. In women there was also very frequent hypothyroidism and/or elevated prolactin (it's possible that prolactin stimulates the production of androgens). Balding men, on the other hand, had higher serum estradiol than controls. "Schmidt makes a very big point of the finding that women suffering from androgenic alopecia do not necessarily have higher serum androgens (other than cortisol, generally not classified as an androgen, though it should be). She thinks that THE MAIN HORMONAL DISTURBANCE LINKED TO FEMALE ALOPECIA IS HYPOTHYROIDISM. It's likely that hypothyroidism leads to abnormalities in both estrogen and androgen metabolism. I'm amazed that this study didn't look at insulin, since elevated insulin has been linked to alopecia in hyperandrogenic women. Anecdotally, lowering insulin with drugs and/or diet does seem to improve hair growth in both men and women. [Read my paragraphs on insulin resistance in the Nutrition page sidebar.] "As you can see, the situation gets more and more complicated the more hormones you look at. Finally you just want to throw up your hands and say, "OK, it looks like all the hormones are out of whack." To put it more formally, androgenic alopecia is a multi-hormonal disorder. You can't just say "too much DHT." Malnutrition and stress can obviously cause hair loss, but it appears that the primary causes are genetic-hormonal-immunological and vascular (it's not really possible to separate the endocrine system from the immune system from the nervous system and so forth). In other words, to preserve our hair, we must keep DHT and cortisol at bay and strive to preserve clean arteries." | ||
| Common sense |
Hi Tom, A very interesting article you quoted. Much of it has gone straight over my head (so to speak) so I should really read it a couple of more times. One thing which stood out to me was the following quote: THE SCALP FOLLICLES OF GENETICALLY SUSCEPTIBLE INDIVIDUALS HAVE MORE OF THE ENZYME 5-ALPHA-REDUCTASE, RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONVERSION OF TESTOSTERONE TO DHT This is obviously true as it seen in all sufferers of MPB. However I think the question that we need to ask is WHY THE SCALP FOLLICLES??? Why do the scalp follicles have more 5-alpha-reductase? Whats so special about the scalp follicles? Why not the armpit follicles or the thigh follicles? Again i fall back on my initial statement that it is perhaps because of the fact that the scalp is a relatively dormant area in comparison to other parts of the body that have hair. The scalp doesn't move or 'breathe' in the way other parts of the body do so this could be why the scalp follicles are the primary targets for DHT / 5-alpha-reductase / Cortisol and any other chemicals or substances that are thought (or known) to cause hairloss. IF this is true, the solution all MPB sufferers should follow is religiously performing the SE correctly and we should "strive to preserve clean arteries" through perhaps a healthy diet - Well done Tom! Bon: Seriously stay off the drugs... I was on minoxidol and had some short term gains at the expense of a very itchy scalp and extremely heavy dandruff. I don't think we should tamper with our bodies with silly chemicals that give few positive results and lots of side effects. I believe the SE will work as it makes so much sense and it doesn't have any side effects. | ||
| Bon |
I believe the SE will work as it makes so much sense and it doesn't have any side effects.> that is good. It will keep you motivated. I hope its true for the luck of us all. I love my hair and I would consider the chemical way. Maybe Tom would too if the SE hadn't worked for him. I want the SE to work for two reasons.the second one is that I would like Tom's hypothesis to have ground as he is helping as all by sharing his ideas and as he is answering hundreds of mail by desperate-angry-worried men. I want his story to be similar to mine.I am older than he was(I am 27) and I have a different kind of loss(crown). But I think I share his feelings when he was nineteen and angry. | ||
| Anonymous |
But Tom doesnt know for sure that he wasnt thinnning in the crown area. He probably was, but the frontal thinning was more obvious and visible as he liked having his hair backwards. | ||
| Bon |
anyway, very few testimonials report regrowth in the vertex. thats sad-but makes it a challenge. If Tom returns to this thread it would be interesting if he could remember if he saw any regrowth in the hairline. I am aware that he was just thinning and not bald, but I am curious, as the hairline area is the "main battlefield" in most cases. It is a bit funny: drugs work mostly for the vertex as the SEs work mostly for the temples. | ||
| Common sense |
Not a very positive response from you Bon. I'm 24 and i'm not exactly exstatic about the situation. If the SE doesn't work for the crown then Tom would have regrown his hairline and his crown would have eventually become bald. Don't be so negative about it and just keep doing it knowing that it will help. At the end of the day there are lots of extremely successful bald men in the world (whether it be money, women, achievements, education or anything else that you would rate your success with) so don't let it get you down and it really won't make a difference. Easier said than done. | ||
| Bon |
well my motivation stems from elsewhere Common.I am a stubborn s.o.a.b.That doesnt mean that I'll start seeing everything pink due to optimism. Dont have to motivate me-I won't quit. About your other comment:"If the SE doesn't work for the crown then Tom would have regrown his hairline and his crown would have eventually become bald." Dont forget that it is easier to maintain than to regrow. And Tom maintained his vertex intact.That does not mean that I can turn many of my intermediate hairs of my crown to terminal. I do not take this for granted. But I dont need this to keep doing it-if you see what I mean here. | ||
| Common sense |
Yeh I see what you mean. I think you are looking too deep into it though... don't overcomplicate the matter. If the scalp exercises will work for you then they should help your entire scalp and not just the frontal areas. If the theory is correct then the whole scalp should regrow hair. We're both in the same boat anyway... my hair is becoming a lot thinner around the crown area and i think people have started to notice. I feel sick when i think about it. I've doing been the SE so much lately that my neck becomes stiff and sore when i turn my head and the rear muscles feel sore after i resume a session not long after an intense one. I've been inducing maximum burn ;-) Would be good to hear about any progress you make so keep us informed. I hope that by the end of this year i will have achieved good results... if i do i will be a very happy person. | ||
| Bon |
yes. stay on it so that we have two reports on thinning crowns. I am curious. ps.haha its funny- I am thinning and I am angry about it but I have acquired a scientific interest on the matter two. Like a test mouse and a crazy scientist two-in-one.  ) | ||
| Bon |
on the matter TOO. its getting late... | ||
| Tom Hagerty |
The contributors to this thread might see something relevant in this article: Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor (VGEF) Researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) have been able to grow hair faster and thicker on mice thanks to a protein that promotes blood vessel growth in their skin. The mouse hair follicles ? while no greater in number than those of normal mice ? are individually bigger. Collectively, they increase the total volume of hair by 70 percent, the MGH research team reports in the Feb. 19 Journal of Clinical Investigation. If the protein has the same powers in humans, it could lead to the first angiogenic therapy for male pattern baldness. "In male pattern hair loss, it's not that the follicles are gone. They?re just miniature follicles," says Michael Detmar, MD, associate professor of dermatology at MGH and lead author on the study. "If anyone could find a way to make the follicles bigger, men might grow hair again." The discovery that increasing blood flow to the scalp helps stave off baldness may be old news to many barbers. For years, they have been advising clients to massage their scalps as way of stimulating circulation and hair growth. A few scientific studies have suggested that people with hair loss may have fewer blood vessels. But no one had actually measured how closely blood vessel growth is correlated with hair growth, or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place. To explore these questions, Kiichiro Yano, a research associate in dermatology at MGH, and his colleagues compared two groups of mice, one normal and one genetically programmed to produce an abundance of a protein known to trigger blood vessel growth, VEGF. The VEGF-enhanced mice grew hair faster and thicker in the first two weeks of life than did the control mice. The VEGF-enhanced mice also regrew hair faster. Shaved 8 week-old VEGF-mice not only grew hair back sooner, they exhibited a 30 percent increase in hair follicle diameter 12 days after depilation. "By overall volume, the hair was about 70 percent thicker than in wild-type mice," says Detmar. Blood vessels located in the skin surrounding the pumped-up hair follicles were 40% larger in diameter than those found in normal mice, suggesting that the VEGF-mediated angiogenesis was causing the hair to grow faster and thicker. When normal mice were treated with an antibody that blocks VEGF activity and then shaved, their hair grew back slower and was thinner than their untreated littermates. Twelve days after depilation, the VEGF-deprived mice still displayed bald spots and overall reduced hair growth. "So by modulating VEGF, we can directly influence the size of the hair," says Detmar. As for how the VEGF-inspired blood vessels are plumping up the hair shafts, the researchers believe they may be delivering an extra supply of growth factors, in addition to oxygen and nutrients. Detmar and his colleagues are developing a technique to deliver VEGF topically to the scalp. "The question now is can we, by this method, improve hair growth in humans," he says. "Applying it to humans will be the big challenge." | ||
| Bon |
"...or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place." that's gonna be our little secret. right? very encouraging.a thought that clowded my upcomming optimism after reading this is that mice do not go naturally bald. But the fact that there is an increase in follicle diameter due to angiogenesis and larger stronger capillaries is great news Tom. I hope the best for us and for your method. | ||
| Common sense |
Again Tom you hit us with another ray of hope... that article lays even more solid foundation for the SE's. "A few scientific studies have suggested that people with hair loss may have fewer blood vessels. But no one had actually measured how closely blood vessel growth is correlated with hair growth, or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place." And from Tom's writings in regards to the SE: "It strengthens the walls of the capillaries in the subcutaneous layer that nourish the hair follicles, and perhaps promotes the growth of new capillaries in scalp tissue (angiogenesis)." Perhaps the build up of DHT in a 'dormant' area of the skin constricts blood vessels and causes shrinkage of the follicles. It's all perhaps this perhaps that but i think there must be some geniune correlation here somewhere. It could also explain why the SE takes a number of months before results are seen... growing blood vessels can't be a quick easy job. So the moral of the story today is... keep doing the SE to build and grow blood vessels in the scalp so that hair follicles remain (and even become) larger so that hair growth is promoted. That sounds good enough Bon: How ironic is it that you make a comment on a test mouse and a scientist and Tom posts that article! By the way i think i read some positive results on the SE and the crown area somewhere on this site... cant remember where it was. Any input Tom? | ||
| shezz111 |
Bon: "mice do not go naturally bald" I see your concern but so what? It doesn't matter if mice don't experince baldness because they are merely test subjects (sorry all you animal rights activists). What was being tested was the effect of blood vessels in relation to follicles and hair growth. Maybe mice don't have any 5-alpha-reductase in their bodies or maybe (linking back to my original point) there are no 'dormant' areas in their bodies so blood vessels naturally flourish anyway. Either way it gives us more reason to continue with the SE. | ||
| Common sense |
Hmm... i forgot my alias in my last message... hah hah! | ||
| Bon |
Either way it gives us more reason to continue with the SE.> this is a fact. I am with you on this. Either way(dht blockage wins over sufficient nutrition of follicles or the opposite) the SE will have given a plus to our hair status. | ||
| Bon |
How ironic is it that you make a comment on a test mouse and a scientist and Tom posts that article! > haha common you are right! what an irony! :D By the way i think i read some positive results on the SE and the crown area somewhere on this site... cant remember where it was. Any input Tom? > yes there are a few testimonials stating that the hair swirl on the crown was restored. I used to have two swirls.they are still there but the area near each is thinning. Its a funny pattern-there is a bridge of hair between them.grrrr keep pumping! | ||
| Common sense |
Yeh i got that swirly thing going on up top as well... only one swirl though and its also looking kind of thin. Do you notice how much more positive the tone is in the last few messages? I can't wait to return to post positive results... if it grows back im gonna have it an inch longer then spike it up in a messy kind of style then hit the clubs singin.. "Ooh yeh baby here I come"... | ||
| Common sense |
Here are a couple of interesting articles in relation to the above: http://www.patienthealthinternational.com/news/3811.aspx?nocookies=true http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-11/dumc-nii110504.php | ||
| Bon |
well there are two views on the subject. one says we should hit the clubs anyway. other one says dont get carried away with this. great excitement often gives room to great disappointment.(haha I sound like a chinese kung fu master...) well, there are a few more but these are my points. | ||
| Bon |
thanks common. these are some very informative links. great! :D | ||
| Tom Hagerty |
This is the best thread I've seen on the discussion forum. I think we've all learned something from the messages. Thanks for those two links, Common Sense. I want to quote a couple of relevant sentences from the Ivy Greenwell article I posted on Sunday: "The lining of blood vessels produces nitric oxide (NO, as in MiNOxidol, the active ingredient in Rogaine) and possibly other hair growth factors; when this lining is damaged through the accumulation of atherosclerotic plaque, less nitric oxide (NO) is produced." "...And vasodilatation implies nitric oxide release." There is no doubt that the scalp exercise dilates the epicranial blood vessels. Any basic biology book will state that "...blood flow into contracting muscles is ten times greater than normal." Increased blood flow means dilated blood vessels. By the way, disregard any messages posted under names that look like mine (Tom Hagarty, Tom Hogarty, etc.) Some guy from New Zealand is using my name to post personal attack messages full of four-letter words. I guess that down under that's considered high comedy. Of course I delete these messages. | ||
| Bradley |
Tom, I think the most of us can tell the real you thankfully. I agree, this is one of the best threads in a long time. Keep the hope alive everyone!! | ||
| Tom Hagerty |
This thread is getting too long - too much scrolling. I think it's been a productive thread, at least for me. I learned a lot from it. Click Why the Scalp Exercises Work, page 2 to continue on a fresh page. |
