| Author | Message | ||
     hairy wookie New member Username: Wookie Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2006 |
Foote's theory could be correct? Here is an edema associated hairloss: http://dermatology.cdlib.org/114/NYU/NYUtexts/0315059.html 
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| hairy wookie New member Username: Wookie Post Number: 61 Registered: 07-2006 |
The current theory of MPB says that follicular miniaturization via genetically programmed response to androgens precedes end stage edema, and, Mr. Foote appears to be proposing that edema, due to inadequate lymphatic efficiency, causing contact inhibition via indirect actions of DHT, is an initial step before miniaturization can even occur. A healthy scalp with thicker diameter hairs looks much different than the scalp with dying miniaturized hairs. [A] Miniaturization precedes unhealthy scalp [B] Unhealthy scalp precedes miniaturization Many people often notice itchy scalp before they notice balding. That would seem to imply that [B] is true. | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 118 Registered: 07-2006 |
If prostaglandins slow lymphatic upward pumping, then latanasprost and a NO precurser like topical arginine would seemingly be about the best thing one could do for baldness (if Stephen's contentions are correct). A great topical receptor blocker that made it to deeper tissues would help even more so. | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 125 Registered: 07-2006 |
Wook, Stephen would enjoy this: Herbal Breast Enhancement ProductsHerbal Breast Enhancement products including the popular Grobust product and ... Apple Cider Vinegar, Apple Pectin, Apricot Kernel, Arctic Root, Arginine ... www.herbalremedies.com/inbreassizis.html - 140k - Cached - Similar pages Breast enlargement is a fluid-shifting effect. ABout everything in that list is in hair products including apricot kernel oil (L'Oreal anti-frizz serum which also includes borage seed oil and avacodo oil---which has beta sis). Interesting indeed. Like Ive said, his theory, right or wrong, has so many coincidences its uncany. | ||
| hairy wookie New member Username: Wookie Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2006 |
An interesting link posted by Mr. Foote at theHairloss Talk Forums: http://hairmillion.com/ref-hair-loss/hair-loss-research-abs3.506.html
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| Gabe New member Username: Gabe Post Number: 45 Registered: 07-2006 |
jpj Do you believe heating up some water and mixing it up with this product (the link is to long to post so go on www.swansonvitamins.com and past in this "Swanson Ultra Maximum-Strength Arginine AKG" in the search box) Would the use of this product as a topical be a good way to go about with it? They explain that it is *Nitric oxide enhancer increases blood flow for speedier delivery of oxygen and nutrients to cells *Supports physical energy and faster muscle recovery *Enhances sexual performance Get all the cardiovascular benefits from L-arginine, but faster! This pairing with alpha-ketoglutarate, an amino acid compound used for energy metabolism, accelerates absorption of L-arginine. As L-arginine metabolizes into nitric oxide, blood vessels relax, promoting a healthy blood pressure already within a normal range. You'll enjoy steadier energy levels with the more efficient exchange of cell nutrients and wastes and speedier delivery of oxygen to the tissues. Supplementing with Arginine AKG also promotes faster muscle recovery after exercise and enhances sexual performance in men. So basically does the added AKG in it make it a better topical? then regular L-arginine? | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 129 Registered: 07-2006 |
Gabe, Arginine is included in prox-n and dove shampoo now. Its even in dove hairspray. Im pretty sure its making its way into other hairloss topicals. Its in NANO shampoo and Dr. Proctor suggests folks also take it internally. Interestingly, pomegranate juice is a NO-releaser also. Im not a chemist, but if Peter Proctor thinks it helps topically..............it probably would. Most topicals use either alchohol/propelyne glycol or both for better absorption. A damp head absorbes things better than a dry one. I think aloe vera gel might get some NO released also. You might check up on that if youve got some google time. I know bodybuilders use arginine and its even used to help a little erectile difficulty. Sounds like a good thing if a man isnt getting enough in his diet doesn't it? | ||
| Downunder New member Username: Downunder Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2006 |
Wookie, I am not sure what discussions have been going on in reference to the link you posted at HLT. I tried to do a quick search at HLT but the engine must have been down. Anyway, it has been years since I looked at that article. My caution is to know what they are saying. For starters they talk about evaporation rate, in difference to sweat production. From a thermal perspective, hair being present acts as a good insulator. It controls air movement and the sweat that is on the hairs, provides a more efficient cooling than skin alone. So the cooling and heating efficiency is improved. It therefore seems quite logical that nature may have catered for this through less sweat production required by hairy skin due to the increased thermal efficiency. The presence of healthy follicles also changes the skin structure. It would have been nice if they said if hairy scalp and hairy beard were similar evaporation rates. And if nature is trying to loose heat by loosing hair, why does it rug-up the rest of the body in a blanket of hair. Seems counter-productive. Still, interesting information to know. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 8 Registered: 09-2006 |
Hi Downunder. The full sweating study is available on Pub Med, but it has to be paid for. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Display&DB=pubmed If you go to this link, there are other related abstracts listed on the right. The one about scalp PO2 levels is very interesting. Professor Cabanac sent me a copy of this sweating study after my paper was published in Medical Hypotheses. This was a very carefully planed study, with lots of technical info about the temperatures and air movement etc. The method of sweat evaporation measurement, was designed to get an accurate reading of the "amount" of sweat secreted. The study wanted to know the capacity of different areas of tissue in the same individual, to produce sweat. There were three groups of six individuals. 1/ Pre-puberty young boys. 2/ Adult women. 3/ Adult men with good beard growth, and various degree's of MPB. In all subjects four areas of the head were tested in an area of 133 square MM, and any hair present in this area was shaved. So the measurement was a function of the tissue and not the presense/absence of hair itself. 1/ The forehead in the centre just above eyebrow level. 2/ The temple area. 3/ The vertex area. 4/ The chin. As stated in the abstract quote: "During light hyperthermia the evaporation rate on the bald scalp was 2 to 3 times higher than on the hairy scalp. Conversely the evaporation rate was practically equal on the foreheads and chins of women and unbearded young men, while in adult clean-shaven bearded men it was 40% less on the chin than the forehead." It was also interesting that the temple (frontal) area produced slightly more sweat than the vertex (crown) area in both controls and Bald subjects. With both areas in the bald subjects producing around 2 to 3 times more sweat than the hairy controls as reported. I suggest this is in line with the frontal area being harder to treat in MPB. From the graph in the full study, the beard area falls in between the sweating levels of the hairy vertex and temple figures. So this is in line with a "fluid" link in androgen related hair growth/loss. S Foote. | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 131 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen, I dont know if you seen it, but I thought you'd get a kick out of it. I posted one of the contents for one of those herbal remedies for breast enlargement. It sounded like the ingredients for a baldness product. Apple cider vinegar, arginine, apple pectin, apricot kernel oil, borage seed oil (I think), couple of other things not right on the top of my head but that you see in baldness products. I thought you'd get a kick out of it. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2006 |
JPJ wrote "Stephen, I dont know if you seen it, but I thought you'd get a kick out of it. I posted one of the contents for one of those herbal remedies for breast enlargement. It sounded like the ingredients for a baldness product. Apple cider vinegar, arginine, apple pectin, apricot kernel oil, borage seed oil (I think), couple of other things not right on the top of my head but that you see in baldness products. I thought you'd get a kick out of it." Yes thanks JPJ, i saw that. My theory does extend to secreting glands and "Hydraulics". The whole theory starts with how fluid hydraulics would be useful in evolution. You know how i claim this mechanism in the dermis, but there is also the function of secreting glands. The raw material for any secreting gland has to be tissue fluid. So there has to be a lot of tissue fluid available for the gland to process into the required secretion. We know sex hormones cause prostate and female breast developement and secretion rates, and changing hormone levels effects both. So sex hormones simply "must" in evolution, be effecting local hydraulic changes in these glands somehow! S Foote. | ||
| Gabe New member Username: Gabe Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2006 |
S Foote. So what is the solution to all of this? Including you’re theory. | ||
| Ritchie New member Username: Ritchie Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen, Thanks for your fresh perspective on the matter. You explain the success of hair grafts by the wall of scar tissue around the graft that prevent tissue expansion, and, that the evidence of this lies in the fact that surgeons are resorting to smaller plug sizes. Is hair growth after grafting really limited to the edge of the scar tissue? Has such an occurrance been observed? Or are we presuming here. Smaller grafts could simply be in order to get more aesthetic quality. | ||
| Ritchie New member Username: Ritchie Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2006 |
Also, On one of your posts you mention about excessive hair growth on the backs of ice carriers. Where can I find more info on this. | ||
| Ritchie New member Username: Ritchie Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen, I'm not sure 5 min or so would make a difference, but a lot of people claim their scalp & hair feel better when they rinse with cold water daily. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 10 Registered: 09-2006 |
Gabe wrote: "S Foote. So what is the solution to all of this? Including you’re theory." This also responds to Ritchie's questions. At this time, i think you need to reduce the DHT levels that trigger the train of events, then treat the edema/inflammation in the MPB area. This seems to be the conclusion these forums are coming to through the treatment experience also. I think something like Zix has the potential to reduce DHT where necessary, without the side effects of the pills. But you would have to use it on the "hairy" areas of the head including the beard area. Not on the MPB area! As i have said, i think the laser treatments have potential to reverse the damage in the MPB area itself. But this would require further research to tune them in to MPB properly, and they aqre expensive at this time. Tom's exercises also help in reversing the adverse effects in MPB in my opinion. As does regular gentle massage, and occasional inversion. People say there is no problem with blood feed to the scalp, so the circulation related theories are wrong. I agree there is no problem with blood supply "to" the scalp, but this is a big part of the problem in my opinion! There is too much blood feed that can lead to edema. It is the drainage side of the circulation that needs to be improved, and it is this that Tom's exercise, massage and inversion helps with in my opinion. Inversion is really just getting the larger part of your body above your head for a while. I regularly just lie on my back with my legs up a wall for a few mins whilst massaging my scalp. I think inversion therapy helps by exercising all the "feed and return" vessels. Cold is very good for MPB in my opinion. My theory starts with a mechanism for increased hair growth in response to cold in evolution. The reference to the ice workers is in the maker of Crinagen Dr Razack's book "Conquering Hair Loss". Quote: "Many of these delivery men had thick hair growth distributed over the areas of their backs where they would repetitively rest the blocks of ice" So i think cold or cool water hair washing is good in MPB. I would certainly avoid hot water on the scalp, or overheating of the scalp in general. Ice packs reduce edema and inflammation, heat agrivates it! In the future given further research, it could be that a "one off" simple surgery to "re-plumb" the scalp, would solve the DHT/MPB issue. We know some people can have high levels of DHT without any sign of MPB. I think the difference is down to the "plumbing". I think the main evidence for a scar tissue "scaffold" in transplantation lies in the older larger graft effect long term. The early studies that used large grafts of 4mm and over, did not report any hair loss from these grafts over the period of the studies (around two years). But we know now that grafts of 4mm and over, inevitably lose most of the hair growth. All that remains is terminal hair growing around the edges of the grafts (near the scar tissue). This effect is called "doughnutting", because thats what it looks like. http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/resources/GraftInjury-Summary.php Quote: "The problems that affected the large grafts of the early 1980’s, which produced phenomena such as “doughnutting,” no longer apply to the small graft hair transplants in vogue today." The "reason" given for the hair loss in larger grafts (hypoxia), cannot be explained in real scientific terms. If the cause was hypoxia, these grafts would not grow hair OK for over two years before the hypoxia started! The big problem with transplantation is it is in the hands of commercial interests! They are not going to say a process that is just like MPB (recession of hair from the center outwards), still happens in "DHT resistant hair" are they? In my opinion the common factor in the long term survival of terminal hair transplanted to the MPB area, is the scar tissue that forms around these terminal follicles. S Foote. | ||
| Gabe New member Username: Gabe Post Number: 47 Registered: 07-2006 |
S Foote. I must say that you’re theory sounds good, I kind of hade the same thoughts before, about the pattern of the beard and the pattern of the hair loss…you kind of made it clear to me that such thing can exists… Would topical melatonin work as good as zix or better? Should I use this solution on all areas of the head including the MPB and beard? I’m currently just using it on the MPB areas...along with topical caffeine and a topical nettle root, rose mary, silica complex I’ve made myself… I have been doing cold showers for a while now before every application too, but are there any certain time you have to keep the water on? I usually just do it for 30 secs, is that enough time? | ||
| Downunder New member Username: Downunder Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2006 |
Steve, Thanks for the additional information on the study, it is quite useful. They say "These results support the hypothesis that male baldness is a thermoregulatory compensation for the growth of a beard in adults." This information is very flimsy support for peoples hair loss being due to increased heat loss requirements necessary because of your beard growth. Being an engineer you would know about the heat transfer changes involved. Assuming a bald scalp is the same or smoother than beard skin and air flow, radiation and temp is a constant, then to obtain an evaporation rate of 2-3 times that of the bearded area requires increased surface temperature (there are other possibilities like oil causing more sweat beading, surface texture etc but they generally will not produce such a large change in this case). If it is the case, the energy imbalance caused by 40% loss in the beard area evaporation is going to be less than the fact people wear underpants constantly covering a larger section of body etc. By this type of mechanism(heat imbalance) you may expect some hair thinning, say after puberty when beard develops, but once the heat balance is restored then the hair loss would cease. The sweat production at beard area falling in between the sweating levels of the hairy vertex and temple figures makes sense. I believe there is less efficient circulation which is the same as your theory (edema being caused by poor circulation). Flow in, is reasonable but flow out, is poor. There is plenty of fluid for sweat production. It depends on how you wish to interpret the results. Certainly the scalp is always trying to cool. The surrounding tissue in the bald scalp is not doing as an effective job of cooling as the beard or hairy scalp. Although I am sure the scalp health deteriorates, I am not saying this possibility is right or wrong, just that within these results it is another possible outcome. We agree that excessive heat is not good for the hair. Antidotally it does not appear that the introduction of cloths to humans, or indians who wear tubins, suddenly suffer MPB. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 11 Registered: 09-2006 |
Gabe wrote: "S Foote. I must say that you’re theory sounds good, I kind of hade the same thoughts before, about the pattern of the beard and the pattern of the hair loss…you kind of made it clear to me that such thing can exists… Would topical melatonin work as good as zix or better? Should I use this solution on all areas of the head including the MPB and beard? I’m currently just using it on the MPB areas...along with topical caffeine and a topical nettle root, rose mary, silica complex I’ve made myself… I have been doing cold showers for a while now before every application too, but are there any certain time you have to keep the water on? I usually just do it for 30 secs, is that enough time?" Hi Gabe. The topical should be aimed at reducing DHT production in the hairy parts of the head, beard area included. I personaly think any topical used on the MPB area is best aimed at reducing inflammation. Search the threads for peoples experiences with topical anti-inflammatories. I dont know if melatonin reduces DHT, or if is as good as other topicals in that respect. As long as your topicals are reducing DHT as much as possible they should be OK. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule about cooling the scalp. I think as much as you can, and avoid heating the MPB area. Good luck. S Foote. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 12 Registered: 09-2006 |
Downunder wrote: "Steve, Thanks for the additional information on the study, it is quite useful. They say "These results support the hypothesis that male baldness is a thermoregulatory compensation for the growth of a beard in adults." This information is very flimsy support for peoples hair loss being due to increased heat loss requirements necessary because of your beard growth. Being an engineer you would know about the heat transfer changes involved. Assuming a bald scalp is the same or smoother than beard skin and air flow, radiation and temp is a constant, then to obtain an evaporation rate of 2-3 times that of the bearded area requires increased surface temperature (there are other possibilities like oil causing more sweat beading, surface texture etc but they generally will not produce such a large change in this case). If it is the case, the energy imbalance caused by 40% loss in the beard area evaporation is going to be less than the fact people wear underpants constantly covering a larger section of body etc. By this type of mechanism(heat imbalance) you may expect some hair thinning, say after puberty when beard develops, but once the heat balance is restored then the hair loss would cease. The sweat production at beard area falling in between the sweating levels of the hairy vertex and temple figures makes sense. I believe there is less efficient circulation which is the same as your theory (edema being caused by poor circulation). Flow in, is reasonable but flow out, is poor. There is plenty of fluid for sweat production. It depends on how you wish to interpret the results. Certainly the scalp is always trying to cool. The surrounding tissue in the bald scalp is not doing as an effective job of cooling as the beard or hairy scalp. Although I am sure the scalp health deteriorates, I am not saying this possibility is right or wrong, just that within these results it is another possible outcome. We agree that excessive heat is not good for the hair. Antidotally it does not appear that the introduction of cloths to humans, or indians who wear tubins, suddenly suffer MPB." Hi Downunder. I think the only thing that study actually "proves", is the direct relationship with hair growth, sweating, and tissue fluid levels, and i think that is the important thing. But i do not agree with the conclusion by Prof Cabanac that this has any thermal purpose in modern humans. I think it is just a demonstration that we still retain a link with fluid levels and hair growth that evolved ages ago, along with the "design" of hair follicles themselves. The primary reaction to cold in mammals is a shift of blood and fluids away from the surface tissue to reduce heat loss from the body. Hair evolved as an insulator, so hair growth also needed to be adjustable in line with temperatures. We know that such an adjustment has evolved because of the winter coat in hairy mammals, and shedding or a "moult" in hot climates. So why didn't evolution come up with a simple surface structure on the skin that just produces hair? Why this "pocket" that extends down into the dermal tissue? I think follicles evolved as a pocket in the dermal tissue, because this then allowed the size of the pocket to be adjusted through contact inhibition resistence, by the local dermal fluid pressure. So as dermal fluid levels and pressures reduced in response to cold, the follicle pocket could grow larger because of reduced resistence from the dermal "pressure". Larger follicles produce thicker longer hair (the winter coat). This is a simple self adjusting response to cold, and the reverse also applies in hot environments. Hair growth reduces in response to increased dermal blood feed and fluid pressure that disapates heat from the body. This same increase in tissue fluid levels in the dermis provides more fluid for the sweat glands in hot climates. This is the basic mammalian dermal model in my theory. Other evolution since in humans, including increased fat levels in dermal tissue, and the development of the human brain, have taken us away from dependence on hair to control our temperatures. To conclude that scalp hair "has" to be lost to compensate for beard growth to keep heat loss equal, just doesn't make sense. We don't have any hair to speak of on our bodies, so we could lose all the heat we need (from the brain or anywhere else) through the general circulation if it was necessary in evolution? Many men can grow full beards without developing MPB as we know on these forums, so there is no necessity for a beard growth/scalp loss equation for heat loss from the human brain! According to the basic model above, the trigger to changes in hair growth and sweating efficiency is an initial change in the dermal tissue fluid pressures. Even though we have evolved away from requiring these changes in response to temperature to survive, we still have the same dermal system "hardware". So we do still get increased hair growth with exposure to cold, as the ice workers demonstrate. But importantly according to fluid changes as the trigger to these changes, "ANYTHING" that changes fluid pressures will have the same effect on hair and sweating! This is what i think we are seeing in that sweating study. Androgens are changing fluid pressures, increasing these in the MPB area, and reducing them in the beard area. The effects on hair growth and sweating follow on from this. This sweating study proves this causal relationship in-vivo in humans in my opinion. S Foote. | ||
| Downunder New member Username: Downunder Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2006 |
Steve I agree that this study does provide some good confirmation that the dynamics of the system have changed in relation to sweating. You mention the simple self-adjusting response to cold and heat above, and Gabe asked a question on the cold shower subject. So the question arises. If cold packs are commonly used to decrease circulation typically less than 20 minutes per hour, wouldn't a cold shower only decrease circulation, thereby be worse for hair growth? I understand that cold bursts can trigger the reflex action which is slightly different, and probably not what we are talking about here. But application of cold primarily to recent injuries decreases blood flow assisting in reduction of swelling and inflammation. Of course, cold for greater periods of time over 20 minutes, or maybe our ice carrier friends. The body begins to increase blood flow to compensate for the constant decrease in skin temperature. On the other side heat therapy is said to increase blood flow to an area. Typically up to 20-30 minutes. So this raises the question if a warm shower is all that bad by the hydraulic model? Are there any other factors that would advantage the cold shower by your model? Have a G'Day | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2006 |
_______________________________ Downunder wrote: "Steve I agree that this study does provide some good confirmation that the dynamics of the system have changed in relation to sweating. You mention the simple self-adjusting response to cold and heat above, and Gabe asked a question on the cold shower subject. So the question arises. If cold packs are commonly used to decrease circulation typically less than 20 minutes per hour, wouldn't a cold shower only decrease circulation, thereby be worse for hair growth? I understand that cold bursts can trigger the reflex action which is slightly different, and probably not what we are talking about here. But application of cold primarily to recent injuries decreases blood flow assisting in reduction of swelling and inflammation. Of course, cold for greater periods of time over 20 minutes, or maybe our ice carrier friends. The body begins to increase blood flow to compensate for the constant decrease in skin temperature. On the other side heat therapy is said to increase blood flow to an area. Typically up to 20-30 minutes. So this raises the question if a warm shower is all that bad by the hydraulic model? Are there any other factors that would advantage the cold shower by your model? Have a G'Day" Hi Downunder. I think the dynamics in the dermal tissue around the hair follicles, is that cold shifts the blood flow lower down. The drainage systems remain the same, so the net effect is to reduce tissue fluid levels around the follicles. I think the swelling reducing effects of ice packs on injuries works by reducing the blood feed, so allowing the drainage to "catch up". I agree that extreme cold can cause other effects. In the case of the ice carriers, they surely had some protection (insulation) from the ice. So as in the basic model i propose, it is cool over a longer period that increases hair growth, not freezing over a short time. For our purposes, it would not be practical to cool our scalps over such longer periods. I think cooling the scalp during washing the hair can at least exercise the vessels. But it is never going to be a treatment in itself. I certainly think that washing with water at a higher temperature can encourage the inflammatory processes "quickly", so cool is still good and heat bad in MPB in my opinion. Regards. S Foote. | ||
| Gabe New member Username: Gabe Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2006 |
Why not just design a helmet that regulates the right temperature for the MPB area without making you freeze and you just wear it for some time once or twice a day... S Foote. Should the non MPB area be warm while the MPB area is cold? If one could pull that off at the same time what would the effect of it be? | ||
| hairy wookie New member Username: Wookie Post Number: 69 Registered: 07-2006 |
Some feral children are found covered with hair. I wonder if exposure to cold could cause the condition? http://www.feralchildren.com/en/hypertrichosis.php | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 134 Registered: 07-2006 |
Thats a very interesting find Wookie. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2006 |
Gabe wrote: "Should the non MPB area be warm while the MPB area is cold? If one could pull that off at the same time what would the effect of it be?" No i don't think that would be either practical or necessary. I don't think there is any "difference" in hair follicles in the way they respond to cold (or anything else in my opinion). I think cold will increase the growth of "any" follicle. S Foote. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 15 Registered: 09-2006 |
Hairy Wookie wrote: "Some feral children are found covered with hair. I wonder if exposure to cold could cause the condition?" That is an interesting article! We know through those ice workers that cold can do this. But i find the reference to salt intake in that article interesting as well. Experiments with salt deficiency in humans, show the extracellular fluid (tissue fluid) decreases significantly. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1395172&pageindex=10 The other interesting link for me, is the effect of malnutrition Quote: " Of these, malnutrition seems to be the most likely explanation (hypertrichosis is a common symptom of anorexia nervosa)," I have discussed before on these boards that my theory is about the resistance to follicle enlargement by the surrounding tissue. I propose that changes in the tissue fluid pressures can change follicle size by changing this resistance. But there is also the natural resistance of the tissue itself to be considered. If the tissue is naturally "tough" the follicle enlargement will be restricted according to my theory. At some point in our evolution, we "must" have had more body hair like the other primates. But if for some reason we then evolved tougher dermal tissue, this hair growth would have decreased according to the theory. We are known to have much higher dermal fat levels than other primates, the evolution of this is part of the "aquatic ape" theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis This increased fat would increase the natural tissue toughness. My theory provides a logical mechanism for the evolution of a more suitable insulator for the wet conditions (fat), automaticaly reducing the original insulator (hair) ? This would also fit with severe malnutrition increasing body hair growth. In severe malnutrition, the bodies fat reserves would be used up, reducing the "toughness" of dermal tissue, so allowing some more follicle enlargement. Just my thoughts on the information in that article. S Foote. S Foote. | ||
| Gabe New member Username: Gabe Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen Foote. Thanks for the answer Another question I’ve wondered about is blood flow...it has been talked about almost everywhere...no I’m not sure but if coldness will restrain the blood in the area that is being cold, for the body to keep it warm, wouldn’t it mean that increased blood flow is something bad? Or am I twisting it and when the area that is being cold, the body sends more blood to keep it warm, and in that case blood flow is something good? Or how does it work? | ||
| Gabe New member Username: Gabe Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2006 |
Because when you do a head massage you actually massage the scalp to make it warm and increase blood flow right? | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2006 |
Gabe wrote: "Thanks for the answer Another question I’ve wondered about is blood flow...it has been talked about almost everywhere...no I’m not sure but if coldness will restrain the blood in the area that is being cold, for the body to keep it warm, wouldn’t it mean that increased blood flow is something bad? Or am I twisting it and when the area that is being cold, the body sends more blood to keep it warm, and in that case blood flow is something good? Or how does it work?" The reaction to cold is to restrict the blood feed to the surface tissue to stop heat loss. The blood flowing through the surface tissue would be cooled too much in cold environments, so the general body temperature would get dangerously low without this reaction. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Human_Physiology/Integumentary_System#Homeostasis It is this shift in fluid volume and pressure around follicles, that i suggest evolved a link with hair growth in temperature control. The blood flow is not completely cut off in cold conditions, so the surface tissue does not suffer unless it is extreme cold for a long period. The evidence is that we have blood feed coming from all directions to the scalp, in fact i think this is a big part of the MPB problem. When people talk about increased "circulation" helping in MPB, i agree it would. Increased circulation means just that, an increased flow "through". This is often seen as bringing more blood "to" the scalp, but in effect things like massage are increasing the drainage more than the feed, so the flow though is increased. Increased flow through or circulation, reduces the static fluid levels which i think is what we want. We don't want any more blood "feed" to the tissue around scalp follicles according to my theory, we want less feed and more drainage. This study that looked at the effect of surgicaly reducing blood feed to the scalp, reported much improved follicles. http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/artery_ligature.htm You see how again the common factor in good hair growth comes down to reducing the fluid level in the tissue around follicles. This kind of surgery has the same effect on restricting blood "feed" as cold does. Regards. S Foote. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2006 |
I have just come across this interesting study i thought i would pass on. This study was designed to look into the effects of lymphatic stagnation upon immunology in-vivo. This as always it seems, uses the mouse model. But it does again show how lymphedema has profound effects on local inflammation, and the factors involved in MPB are all there!. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16834456 Quote: " We found intense inflammatory changes in the dermis and the subdermis. The molecular pattern in the RNA extracted from the whole tissue was dominated by the upregulation of genes related to acute inflammation, immune response, complement activation, wound healing, fibrosis, and oxidative stress response." S Foote. | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen, Did you read the full text article to see which negative growth factors got mentioned. If it was TGF beta 1, TNF alpha, PKC, and IGF? That would INDEED be interesting. | ||
| Ritchie New member Username: Ritchie Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen, Then maybe your theory could explain the lower rates of MPB in alcoholics. The diuretic effect of alcohol could be reducing tissue fluid levels Ritchie | ||
| Ritchie New member Username: Ritchie Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2006 |
Also of spironolactone? It being a potassium-sparing diuretic.. | ||
| Tom Hagerty Moderator Username: Admin Post Number: 2915 Registered: 01-2003 |
Stephen: I always like to find information that seems to support the scalp exercise program - reasons, even if implausible, why the program sometimes brings positive results. This is from the article you linked to: Sustained lymph stagnation engenders a pathological response that is complex and not well characterized. Tissue inflammation in lymphedema may reflect either an active or passive consequence of impaired immune traffic. I'm absolutely sure that the scalp exercise counteracts lymphatic stagnation. This is from a university biology textbook: When muscles contract or when arteries pulsate, pressure on the lymph vessels enhances the flow of lymph. The rate at which lymph flows is slow and variable, but the total lymph flow is about 100 ml per hour. Stagnant lymph flow does induce a subclinical inflammation in scalp tissue. This inflammation may play a role in hair loss along with other factors like DHT and follicle fibrosis. My medical dictionary gives this definition for upregulation - the process by which a cell increases the number of receptors to a given hormone or neurotransmitter to improve its sensitivity to this molecule. (A decrease of receptors is called downregulation. There's probably another definition - one that would be more in accord with that sentence you quoted: We found intense inflammatory changes in the dermis and the subdermis. The molecular pattern in the RNA extracted from the whole tissue was dominated by the upregulation of genes related to acute inflammation, immune response, complement activation, wound healing, fibrosis, and oxidative stress response. If you know of another definition, perhaps you could post it. | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 136 Registered: 07-2006 |
Tom, Thats some great info on excercise and lymph flow. Is it any wonder that people who excercise hardly ever have that "reddish" inflamed skin around their muscles, while overweight people often have that pinkish-unhealthy-looking skin all over their bodies? My chiropractor (Ive hurt my lower back, the vertebrae right above the sacrum has slid back towards my back------------probably from foresaking my proper computer chair and pulling my bed lazily up to my computer desk and typing away in a leaned-over posture for the past 18 months) told me that cold packs applied for about 20 minutes, and taken off for the rest of the hour, constrict the capillaries and reduce inflammation, and after you take the cold pack off......................engorges the area with alot of blood. More blood than it ever would have gotten from not doing anything to it at all in the same time period. He is not a big believer in hot packs and told me that every study he's read on the subject shows much faster healing with cold packs in a time-dependent manner based on how quickly you get the cold to the wound/inflammed area. Interesting to me anyway. Ritchie, I found some articles on bourbon whiskey that might interest you (do NOT become an alcoholic Ritchie---LOL) Here's one that quantifies the amount of beta sitosterol in bourbon http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2 058796&dopt=Abstract Here's a short paragraph about alcoholics and bourbon from pubmed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3 426733&dopt=Abstract And here is the important one about how beta sis seemingly seemingly gets "sort of" recognized by certain tissues as "something else" (my opinion) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3 426733&dopt=Abstract Ritchie, Chronic alchoholics only make about half the normal level of testosterone. Bourbon contains beta sis that seemingly gets mistaken by alot of tissues as an estrogen. Also, bourbon has laot of barley malt in it. Barley proanthocyanidins (b-3) have been shown to downregulate the activity of TGF-beta 1. TGF-beta 1 is a NEGATIVE growth factor. In hair, it seems to get released by dermal papilla cells after androgens are uptaken in the androgen receptors. Docj077 has pointed out that TGF-beta 1 is associated with fibrosis and autoimmune responses throughout the body in other tissues. Of the negative growth factors that are released to the rest of the follicle that "harm" it in men with baldness, this one may very well be the "worst of the lot" and weaken hair growth the most. SO a bourbon alchoholic.......(1)makes less T .....................(2) has alot of "estrogen" competitively binding with receptor sites .....................(3) probably is inhibiting a negative growth factor to a great degree, which is perhaps the worst one of them all. Its astounding how some old drunks have great hair isn't it? Full heads of filthy, greasy, unkempt, visibly dirty, HAIR. Hasnt been washed in two damned years. | ||
| Tom Hagerty Moderator Username: Admin Post Number: 2919 Registered: 01-2003 |
jpj: You wrote, "Ive hurt my lower back, the vertebrae right above the sacrum has slid back towards my back..." Be skeptical about that diagnosis no matter what you chiropractor tells you - even if he shows you an x-ray film. If your chiropractor is a decent guy (most are), I would still do some serious reading about the lower back in order to have a second opinion - your opinion based on physiological fact. I would recommend getting a "serious" book on lower back pain, but if you're not into this, Back Pain Remedies for Dummies by Sinel and Deardorff is good. There's also a book by Leon Root that's excellent. I forget the title even though I used to have the book. When I moved to my new place I got rid of lots of books. I do lower back exercises every morning without fail. If you keep your midsection trim and tight, you will very likely get rid of all lower back problems unless you have intractable problems like stenosis or ruptured disks. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 18 Registered: 09-2006 |
Tom wrote: "I'm absolutely sure that the scalp exercise counteracts lymphatic stagnation. This is from a university biology textbook: When muscles contract or when arteries pulsate, pressure on the lymph vessels enhances the flow of lymph. The rate at which lymph flows is slow and variable, but the total lymph flow is about 100 ml per hour. Stagnant lymph flow does induce a subclinical inflammation in scalp tissue. This inflammation may play a role in hair loss along with other factors like DHT and follicle fibrosis. My medical dictionary gives this definition for upregulation - the process by which a cell increases the number of receptors to a given hormone or neurotransmitter to improve its sensitivity to this molecule. (A decrease of receptors is called downregulation. There's probably another definition - one that would be more in accord with that sentence you quoted: We found intense inflammatory changes in the dermis and the subdermis. The molecular pattern in the RNA extracted from the whole tissue was dominated by the upregulation of genes related to acute inflammation, immune response, complement activation, wound healing, fibrosis, and oxidative stress response. If you know of another definition, perhaps you could post it." Yes i am sure the scalp exercise positively improves lymph flow Tom. The upregulation of genes relating to inflammation is important for my theory. I think the terms upregulation/downregulation of genes is a bit vague really. It is said that these terms were first used to describe hormone receptor changes as you say. But it is now used to describe increased or decreased activity in "any" kind of cell receptor. Personaly i try to avoid medical terminology because it can be confusing, as confirmed by this example. I think the Latin names and the long words became traditional, just through the "snobery" of medicine historicaly. Like a "we know something you don't" kind of attitude. So i really don't have any other specific definition for upregulation/downregulation in the context of gene expression. I dont think the terms can mean changes in numbers relating to genes, just increased/decreased activity. I think from the evolutionary point of view, it would be useful for a relationship to develope between increases in tissue fluid levels and an immune "alert". Any injury causes swelling, so it could be that the Hydraulic changes this causes in tissues "then" triggers the local immunology needed in fighting infection and healing? As you know, my theory is based on the easiest way to link the known reactions in the dermis in evolution. From the cause and effect perspective, such a relationship would make sense. If this is so, anything that increases the local tissue fluid levels would also cause the kind of immune reaction we see in lymphedema in my opinion. I think we can at least be sure that increases in tissue fluid levels and stagnation, "does" cause the kind of immunology seen in MPB. S Foote. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 19 Registered: 09-2006 |
JPJ wrote: "Did you read the full text article to see which negative growth factors got mentioned. If it was TGF beta 1, TNF alpha, PKC, and IGF? That would INDEED be interesting." This study only seemed to investigate the immunology JPJ. We have not as far as i know, got a fully integrated study relating to the full effects of dermal lymphedema. I wish we had!! S Foote. | ||
| Stephen Foote. New member Username: Footy Post Number: 20 Registered: 09-2006 |
Ritchie Wrote: "Then maybe your theory could explain the lower rates of MPB in alcoholics. The diuretic effect of alcohol could be reducing tissue fluid levels" I think that such fluid shifts are the common factor in hair growth/loss. The other factor in alcoholics is the hormone changes this causes. I would still argue that it is hormone related fluid effects that are important. S Foote. | ||
| jpj New member Username: Jpj Post Number: 139 Registered: 07-2006 |
Stephen, The chronic alchoholics in an article Wookie posted a while back had gyno, a class 3 edema of the legs, very little body hair..............................thought that would interest you. Tom, My chiropractor did indeed show me a very big x-ray. The vertebrae above the sacrum was slightly tilted back. I could see it. It was a little too close to the next one also. The pain is a tad better now. Im sitting in a proper computer chair as I type. I think leaning over and reading/typing is what has put pressure on my back. I did some roman chair sit ups just today (as well as tris and shoulders). Youre very right about that mid-section training. Its not rewarding while you do it. No big muscles staring back at you in the mirror like alternate biceps curls..............but oh so important. Reading the net and working out are my two fave hobbies. I dont know how I ever lived without cable internet. | ||
| Tom Hagerty Moderator Username: Admin Post Number: 2923 Registered: 01-2003 |
Stephen: In regard to the often bloated terminology used by medical people, you wrote, "I think the Latin names and the long words became traditional, just through the 'snobery' of medicine historicaly." No matter what you think of the theories of Sigmund Freud, he was a good writer. A.A.Brill, who translated many of his writings into English, thought that some of the common terms that Freud used in German were too mundane. He inflated these terms so that Freud might have more professional respect in the English-speaking world. Medical men often relish words that the unwashed don't understand. Here's an example: Instead of using the immediately understandable phrases like - physician or surgeon caused adverse conditions - medical people refer to these conditions as iatrogenic or iatrogenic in nature. But medical people are saints compared to sociologists. The verbiage of some sociologists like Talcott Parsons is so bloated (in nature  ) that it puts you to sleep on the spot. This thread is getting too long - too much vertical scrolling. If anyone wants to continue the thread, post new messages on Edema Associated Hair Loss, page 2. |
